Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal - part II

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Neither impressed me a lot. What they're doing bears no resemblance to period manuals; the guy in brown is using rapier techniques, and they are both fanning their blades around wildly.

From my limited exposure the period manual has a lot more physical contact i.e. wrestling with swords type stuff. Unfortunately not much of it was safe for a "sport".

What allowed and legal really alters the fighting style in enactments. The SCA versus boffer LARPS versus live Steel contests for example.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

The most disconcerting part, to me, is that the subject he brought up would be a very legitimate conversation for in-character role playing; "do we bring our medic into the firefight, or put him someplace where the wounded might not live long enough to get to him?" Putting it out of character and kyoodling about rules is the sort of thing that kills the fun for me as well.

Agreed! He didn't seem to me to be discussing the tactical situation - and we did need the cart to haul the dead NPC and PC back to the village - as his PC; it came across as a game mechanics thing that sounded like some of the things that have been said about niche protection. I would have not minded a discussion in character at all, ut that's not what we had going.

What griped me was this this was my fourth - literally, my fourth ever - game session of D&D and getting told that I needed to be as expert with the rules as he was in order to be a member of the party. Not a problem, sir; the yellow-and-black-striped handle is right here next to me.

Originally Posted by estar

It a consequence of the Adventurers League setup. The basic premise is that by following the rules of the league you can play your character in any league sanctioned game (game store or conventions). That has a lot of appeal for many. There used to be what was called Living Campaigns. Not only does the "league" send out material to be run. The referees were supposed send back a form with a brief summary of the result. The aggregate result was used to set the background of the adventures for the next "season".

The downside of this that to make it "fair" the whole process had to be made more rigid. Something I am familiar with from having ran a live-action roleplaying chapter that was part of a national organization.

Another way to look at is look what it takes to operate a miniature wargame "campaign" like fighting the Napoleonic War. Versus getting together with your friend and deciding on what scenario you would like to fight out. The scenarios for the campaign usually turn out to be more "standard" than than whatever crazy idea two people decide to try. The same with Adventurer's League except multiplied many fold at a national level.

Ah. Much is explained. Thank you!

Originally Posted by kk7

Re: Pronouncing Tsolyani Correctly;

M.A.R. Barker didn't speak Tsolyani correctly, in any of the the handful of audio tapes I've been lucky enough to receive. I don't think that means he wasn't "serious" about Tsolyani & Tsolyanu; nor any less that language-oriented nerds are less part of his heritage than that of the wargamers.

The Tekumel(ish) game I'm a weekly part of started off with people from fifty-plus years out of phase: students of anthropology at the University of Washington. Since then, those of us who are into language try to enunciate Tsolyani as Barker says we should; those who aren't, don't. What is the problem?

Agreed! We really noticed this when we did both the tape and CD masters. He was quite up front about it, too.

Don't know; Phil used his languages at the table when they added local color. Now, I gather, they are a status symbol. Which I think is unfair to Phil and his gaming.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Agreed! We really noticed this when we did both the tape and CD masters. He was quite up front about it, too.

Don't know; Phil used his languages at the table when they added local color. Now, I gather, they are a status symbol. Which I think is unfair to Phil and his gaming.

Rather like when somebody starts speaking Klingon. I get this urge to back away slowly, making soothing noises and no sudden motions.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Rather like when somebody starts speaking Klingon. I get this urge to back away slowly, making soothing noises and no sudden motions.

Agreed. I never understood the "You Must Speak Tsolyani!" thing. We didn't, he didn't, and we got a lot of gaming done anyway.

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Yep; I saw that go by, and figured we were in deep trouble.

Judging by what I can see, you were right.

I was going to ask what an "Encounter Level" was, but then I don't think I want to know.

The (combat) encounters should be such that the DM should know how many the party can take on, right? Therefore, there is a system to create encounters that are appropriate to the party's average level, and scaling the encounters when they level up - i.e. encounter level.

The silence came after. It was an unhappy end to a wonderful weekend; I'd taken my daughter to her first comics show, and we had a great time. I'm not a comics fan, myself, but it was simply wonderful to enable her to enjoy something she loves. The end of the game session was a pretty sour note, I have to say.

Sorry to hear that, Uncle!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

I looked at this - very good, with none of the 'stage fight' look to it. It does show the limits of what you can do with a single broadsword, which I think may be why sword-and-shield lasted so long. Not bad; not bad at all, is my feeling.

Thank you!

Well, because it's not "stage fight". It's blunt steel replicas used as one sees fit.
The only thing we decided to ban was protracted grappling, and that's because the grass had become slippery, given the footwear. Thus, we decided to ban it as unsafe.
Keyword being "protracted", of course, enter and grab attacks were fine.
(And we're working on better footwear that wouldn't slip in such conditions, too!)

Originally Posted by Big Andy

Nice vid! Are you one of the guys in the video?

Yes, the one in the brown, that got disarmed.
Though we generally use "disarmed" for "got a strong cutting blow to the hand", so I was just "dis-sworded".

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

To many rules, for my comfort. Give me something like "Arrows of Indra" or "Blade and Crown" any day. Much happier in that space...

Sure, Uncle. If I give you Blade and Crown, will you play with me?
(That's a serious question, too).

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Very nice. Very different from movie fights. Many of the Medieval fighting manuals I have taken a look at have similar techniques to Japanese martial arts. Especially the unarmed stuff and the sword taking(like the armbar disarm in the video). I have been meaning to get John Clements book on medieval martial arts for years...ARMA has a great website if you have not seen it yet...http://www.thearma.org. I guess there are only so many ways to manipulate the body, hence the similarities.

H:0)

Thank you, Mighty Hrugga! I'm a HEMA member, and I knew ARMA's site since before it became HEMA (but back than, there was nowhere to train).
Personally, I believe it's different from movie fights, because movie fights are choreographed. We don't do that.

Originally Posted by estar

The guy in the white is an idiot. Look at his hands they are moving all of the damn place. I counted several time where they were at head level or another position well away from the center of his body. He was lucky the guy in brown wasn't particularly aggressive. If it was me I would had his legs cut out from underneath him at the -34 second mark. Or taken a head shot at the 33 mark

Open for a Head Shot
Attachment 1638

Open for a Leg Shot
Attachment 1639

I'll let him know about his hands.
I can, however, tell you why I didn't take those shots, and it's got nothing to do with not being aggressive!

I didn't take the head shot, because I know him. And I know the open head is an invitation that he's sure he can dodge. (Sometimes he's wrong. He's right way more often than that). So, what he wanted me to do was to over commit, knowing how he'd dodge, so he could parry and end it there, in single time.
Same thing for the leg shot. I know he's waiting for me to do exactly that, and planning to counter with a downwards strike and stepping back.
(If you can tell me a safe way to attack the legs in such a situation, without exposing my head, I'd be very interested to learn it! I promise to try it on the same partner, too.)

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Neither impressed me a lot. What they're doing bears no resemblance to period manuals; the guy in brown is using rapier techniques, and they are both fanning their blades around wildly.

We're just students of the sword, Glorious General! We try to improve, too, but we're, regretfully, still amateurs.
I'm not sure what "fanning the swords would mean" - I can guess, but if it's a term, it might have a quite different meaning.

But that part about the rapier techniques is weird, since I've never even studied rapier (I'm the guy in the brown). Can you give me an example?
(Yes, I know it's weird to ask which of my own moves has been a rapier-style one, but I'm really more interested in Antiquity, Early Medieval and Late Medieval techniques).

Originally Posted by estar

From my limited exposure the period manual has a lot more physical contact i.e. wrestling with swords type stuff. Unfortunately not much of it was safe for a "sport".

Wrestling with swords - you mean the halfsword techniques, I guess? Those are unnecessary in this case, since neither of us is armed (it was an Early Dark Age reenactment).
We generally do that, though, when practicing armoured techniques. However, we generally do it on open terrain where the grass hasn't been trampled - see above in this post for where the "no protracted wrestling allowed" rule came from...

What allowed and legal really alters the fighting style in enactments. The SCA versus boffer LARPS versus live Steel contests for example.

Well, it was "anything goes, if the opponent doesn't defend, it's his fault, but no protracted wrestling".

Originally Posted by kk7

Klingon is actually a pretty entertaining and fun constructed language; it's so wasted on its designated fans.

(Says someone who's written a couple short stories in Tsolyani.)

Nothing wrong with knowing Klingon, in my book. It's when someone starts speaking it and expects me to understand it, that I get the urge to follow the advice of the Glorious General regarding the "backing away slowly, making soothing noises and no sudden motions".

Originally Posted by AsenRG

I'll let him know about his hands.

By keeping the hand near the center of your body it takes less time to get the blade to where you need it. I tell people starting out to keep your wrist within your shoulders, below your neck, and above your waist.

There are other techniques that I am vaguely aware of given the surge of interest in European martial arts in the past two decades so don't take this as the final word. However it is a solid foundation on which to learn with fight with swords.

I can, however, tell you why I didn't take those shots, and it's got nothing to do with not being aggressive!

Originally Posted by AsenRG

I didn't take the head shot, because I know him. And I know the open head is an invitation that he's sure he can dodge. (Sometimes he's wrong. He's right way more often than that). So, what he wanted me to do was to over commit, knowing how he'd dodge, so he could parry and end it there, in single time.

If I reading correctly you are the guy in the brown right? The thing is that you don't have to over commit to make an effective attack to his head region. A thrust or twist your wrist and arm to swing the sword TIP up and around to come down on his hand region.

Your wrist should remain in front of you. This way if he try to strike you , even in your lower region all you have to do is twist your wrist and arm the other way to move the sword TIP in a position to block.

Warning it will be tiring on your wrist and arm. So in the long term it pays to do strengthening exercises.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

Same thing for the leg shot. I know he's waiting for me to do exactly that, and planning to counter with a downwards strike and stepping back.
(If you can tell me a safe way to attack the legs in such a situation, without exposing my head, I'd be very interested to learn it! I promise to try it on the same partner, too.)

My exact response would be situational. Based on what I see, I would pivot around his right, twist my wrist and arm, to swing my sword tip at his legs, if he develops an attack on my upper body I would twist my arm and wrist the other way to a blocking position. Either I am fast enough to hit the leg and block. Or I see I won't connect before his attack would hit, abort, and block. The fact that I am pivoting everything in front of me means that even if I am physically slower the physics will allow me to get in position much faster than he can swing.

Also highly dependent on your situational awareness which only develops through practice.

In fencing is all about the wrist, but because you are using a sword you have to add your arm to get the strength needed. But as long as you keep your wrist within the box I outlined above it would take a huge disparity in speed for somebody to be faster then twisting the sword tip in to the position you need it.

Remember because the length of the sword blade a small motion at the pivot translates into large distance at the tip. The goal is to get that tip to where you need it in space so a blow is deflected or a target is hit by the blade between it and your pommel.