Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal - part II

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

A couple of footnotes to your posts, if I may, gentlemen...

You are quite correct, Pundit, re the total unfamiliarity with the current game market - their expectation was that each of them, all six surviving directors, could expect a $50K a year salary - a total income of $300,000 for themselves, and a bit beyond that to pay for their expenses. I agree with you; I doubt that there's that much free money in the game industry...

And you are also correct, my General; the legal expenses involved in beating threats and bluster are far more then any possible return in the game industry / hobby. I can think of several IP holders who have discovered that while they are in very firm control of the IP; they have taken themselves right out of the market. And threats and bluster do pay; see also the career of Prenda Law, and the estimated $14.5 million they made from their scheme before they were closed down.

As I said, we live in interesting times.

You would figure that if they did anything legalwise that they would go after Raymond Feist and his Riftwar Saga novels.

Originally Posted by estar

You would figure that if they did anything legalwise that they would go after Raymond Feist and his Riftwar Saga novels.

Very good point. I asked Phil the exact same question back when "Magician" first came out and a fan told us about it. Phil's refusal to do anything about it brought down Tekumel Games, his own company, as he had refused to sign a contract to allow it to publish his works - so the company had lo legal standing to sue on his behalf. At this point, the statute of limitations may be in play; I'd consult a good IP lawyer to get their opinion. I did this myself, a few years back, and the results were utterly fascinating - a lot of the very serious and quite crippling issues that Gronan and I had had to deal with as Phil's publisher were finally explained.

Originally Posted by Greentongue

What makes people want to play in a highly structured setting?
It seems to me that people tend to prefer "Heroic" settings and not ones that are more rigid then their Real Life.
That they play to get away from that. Where they can make a noticeable difference.

I personally like the idea of a more free wheeling "Conan in Cathay" type spin on the setting but, it seems to me the overwhelming sentiment is for a very rigid social structure.
Is this because of the influence of the original players being in the educational system and heavy structure being what they were comfortable with?
=

Huh?

I do agree with you that players like 'heroic' settings, and Phil's campaign when we played with him was very much a 'heroic' and almost 'pulp' setting. Yes, the society that we lived in was very formal and very structured, but that was the base to which we returned from our adventures out in the 'back of beyond'. Phil's meta-game puttered happily along in the background, while we had our derring-do and cliff-hangers. For us, having that structure to fall back on was always fun - adventures in a palace or a party were a very welcome change from being out in the sticks fighting for our lives - which may be why we spent over a decade playing in his campaign.

So did we, and so we played that way with Phil's active participation - see also the career of one Harchar, of the Blazoned Sail Clan, or my little account of our adventures. I don't know where the 'sentiment for a rigid social structure' comes from - it sounds like the dogma that started to come in in the 1990s, with the advent of the One True Way To Play folks. Phil played the way you like - free-wheeling. (Like Arneson did, for that matter.) Phil's world was just a lot more developed then Dave and Gary's was - he'd had a lot longer to work on it, like about thirty years...

"Is this because of the influence of the original players being in the educational system and heavy structure being what they were comfortable with?"

Where did this come from, if I may ask? None of us in the original groups were in the educational system, with the exception of Phil himself, and we were all a batch of college-age gamers who happened to like playing with the old man - to us young gits, he was an 'old' man. We didn't have heavy structure; we had a world to play in, and we explored that world. Nothing more; nothing less.

Part of the appeal of a structured society is how rare it is in gaming. I can play in a bazillion D&D worlds as a hairy-thewed barbarian; playing in a system of ancient, ritualized, stratified society, that ISN'T just "modern America dressed for a RenFaire" but actually DIFFERENT from what I know, is fascinating.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

Part of the appeal of a structured society is how rare it is in gaming. I can play in a bazillion D&D worlds as a hairy-thewed barbarian; playing in a system of ancient, ritualized, stratified society, that ISN'T just "modern America dressed for a RenFaire" but actually DIFFERENT from what I know, is fascinating.

Oh! All right! Now I understand what Greentongue was getting at!

Ok, yeah, got it. Yes, I'd say that a big part of Tekumel's appeal was the very well-developed society and institutions; both Dave and Gary didn't have nearly that kind of things in their worlds, but as they both pointed out at the time, that was an artifact of when they'd come to their world-settings. Phil, of course, had been writing and thinking about Tekumel since childhood, so he'd had more 'time in grade' as a world-builder.

My fault, Greentoungue; I was mistaken' I thought you were referring to play style around the table. Sorry about the confusion!

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Very good point. I asked Phil the exact same question back when "Magician" first came out and a fan told us about it. Phil's refusal to do anything about it brought down Tekumel Games, his own company, as he had refused to sign a contract to allow it to publish his works - so the company had lo legal standing to sue on his behalf. At this point, the statute of limitations may be in play; I'd consult a good IP lawyer to get their opinion. I did this myself, a few years back, and the results were utterly fascinating - a lot of the very serious and quite crippling issues that Gronan and I had had to deal with as Phil's publisher were finally explained.

While I am not a IP lawyer, I did consult with one before signing my license with Judges Guild. I asked him some questions about copyright. One thing to remember is that you can't "lose" your copyright. You can only lose the right to recover damages. However if you choose to exert your rights then from that time on damages could be recovered. Provided that the work in question was registered with the Copyright office. If it isn't then all you can do is sue the party to cease and desist to distribute the infringing work. So it always worth consulting with a IP attorney to see if you have a case.

Mentioning Feist came to mind because many of his early novels are just now available for the Kindle.

Somewhere in my memory is the vague recollection that Mr. Feist somehow thought in good faith he'd been given permission. Something about talking to TSR instead of Phil, I think, or something like that.

But yeah, the whole "affaire le Feist" was a thorough FUBAR from back to front.

Originally Posted by Greentongue

Are not some of the Foundation faculty currently?
=

Yes, but long after getting into Tekumel. As in, decades.

And not only had Tekumel come before the game unlike Blackmoor and Greyhawk, as Chirine so logically pointed out, but Gary and Dave were in the Castle and Crusade Society after Phil had learned Urdu, so they were interested in different parts of the world.