Thread: Questioning chirine ba kal - part II

Originally Posted by Greentongue

For even a mighty oak to grow a seed must be planted.
While you may feel that sometimes you are "preaching to the choir", of a different church, having insight into the origins validates people that want to grow their own Bonsai of Tekumel.

Besides 1,000+ posts and 22,000+ views, on the Second Thread, indicates some level of interest in the subjects being discussed.
IMHO
=

Thanks for your comments! I do worry that I'm not able to answer your questions because my frames of reference are different then yours might be. All I can do is report what I saw and heard, and if you - and everyone else! - can take away something from that I'm more then happy to be here for you to ask me about stuff.

Originally Posted by Baron

There are always individuals, and waves, that become interested in how our games were played when they were new. Conversely, there are always those who dismiss everything that came before. Fortunately we get to choose who we want to associate with. At least, I've taught plenty of young people how I game. And Chirine, so have you.

Thank you! I'd agree about having taught a few people over the years, quite a few of which have gone on to run their own games - and in some cases, publish their own games. As has been noted before, we stand on the shoulders of those who pioneered out shared hobby, and I think we can learn a lot from them and how they played. If people find my meanderings useful, then I'm pleased; everyone is welcome to come along on the marvelous journey that I've been on since a hot summer day in 1975 when I went looking for a little shop called "La Belle Alliance".

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

I think I know the conversation you're speaking of. But I don't agree with that person's viewpoint; yes, the miniatures we have today are better done, but even he said modern miniatures games were too large and bloated.

As far as Braunstein/RPG type games, I would not use the term "obsolete" so much as "non-mainstream." We are the equivalent of model railroaders who scratchbuild; we are just no longer the main emphasis of the hobby.

It is unfortunately true that neophilia has a strong hold in this hobby and that any number of people will tell you that anything that isn't the latest and greatest is bad just because it isn't the latest and greatest. On the other hand, a wise man once said "I do not seek the approbation of idiots."

You do indeed, and I do agree with his point that we now have simply wonderful miniatures to use in our games; as I've noted here and on my blog, we now have access to all the little lead (and plastic) people that we all dreamed about while sitting around the Ping-Pong table in Phil's basement. I agree with you about not agreeing with his viewpoint; I've watched his game group at play when I drop by the FLGS when getting Fifth Daughter her comics ration, and what strikes me (as is has over the years I've seen them) is that I don't hear any laughter from that table full of people. Serious expressions, serious looks, and what I gather is serious gaming - none of that 'playing with little toy soldiers' thing that you and I also saw at the model railroad club we used to belong to; they also had that same attitude of Serious Business, which is why I think you and I stopped going to meetings and paying the $75 a month in dues.

I'm having a whale of a good time painting up the new Shield Maidens, with the able assistance of Fifth Daughter who has done the research into what proportions of the sample population in the assumed period would have what hair color. We're having fun, and getting a lot of laughs along the way. However, I could never use those figures on that table with that group - Not Serious Enough.

Agreed on the 'non-mainstream' aspect of what we do, an I think I'll make a point of stating that on my blog. it might cut down on the e-mails I get importuning me to endorse games I've never played or heard of.

Agreed about the idiots, too; I don't game with them, either.

And on the other side ofthe coin, I had a wonderful conversation with some folks at the FLGS on Saturday morning, and they're talking about having me come in and run a game for them in Ye Olde Style. So, from my perspective, there's hope yet...

Originally Posted by Hrugga

Wasting my time...??? Uncle, absolutely not!!! Irrelevant...??? Uncle, absolutely not!!! I would not worry so. We are all having fun here. As Greentongue pointed out. The size of this "Oak" speaks for itself. It is part of my daily routine like coffee!!! Thank you for being here. And of course for answering our questions.

H:0)

Thanks for your reply! If folks are having fun, then we're doing well!

And you're very welcome, too!

Originally Posted by Shemek hiTankolel

I don't think you're wasting bandwidth at all. For those of us interested in Tekumel you are providing a valuable insight on the campaign setting, game play, and the creative inspiration behind it all. I for one think that it's great to be able to interact with someone who was there on the ground, so to speak. I just wish that you would share some more anecdotes with us regarding specific, in-game encounters, like you did in the early stages of Part I. Although I would love to hear more about your adventures, I can wait for the final draft of TSTPT. For those who don't care about Tekumel et al they are free to ignore the thread. You occasionally get trolls, like those idiots who showed up in Part I, but for the most part there are more positive attributes, which can be associated with the thread, than negative. As far as I am concerned I really that hope you don't get discouraged and stop participating. The only reason that I am on this site is to "Question Chirine baKal". Thank you for being so accommodating and taking the time to answer our questions!

Shemek

Thank you for your comments! I am really pretty discouraged with gaming in general right now, and I'm hoping that that will change once I get over onto my new work schedule and duties. (I'm also getting a pretty good raise, too, which will help pay for the daughter's residency.) I got very discouraged simply walking through the local game con this past spring - nothing on offer interested me; it seemed like the same old same old. Cinncy Con, on the other hand, had games that fascinated me. We'll see what happens in the future; I have a couple things on tap that might jump-start my interest.

I don't mind telling specific stories, but it does help to ask specific questions. I have over 2,600 hours of time in-game with Phil, and it helps to narrow the search parameters a bit. And I will try to get the book done quicker; the new schedule will help with that.

Re this thread, it's also not just about Tekumel itself, but where the game side of it came from - out of that incredible roiling stew pot of creativity that was gaming in the Twin Cities for so long. If people are interested in that, and what we saw, heard, and did, then I'll be happy to offer my perspectives on it. My problem with an RPG forum in general is that I usually have so little in common with the majority of people on it; my RPG experience is so wildly different from what's being talked about that I don't understand a lot of what I read.

A case in point is the very learned and scholarly discussion about long weapons in narrow corridors; I thought we figured that one out in '76 or '77, with some practical experiments. (For all I know, the gouges in the ceiling are still there.) See also Gronan and The Adventure Of The Mummified Pot-Roast, if you will. I'm both fascinated and baffled by all the discussions of detailed game mechanics - we just didn't use long weapons where they didn't work well, which is why my armor down in the game room has a short sword, mace, long dagger, two short daggers, two knives and a buckler slung from my belt. Yes, I carried (and still carry on the armor) a long sword for situations where I can get some fighting room, but it's on a baldric 'cause I don't use it much inside rooms and in corridors. And we certainly didn't use a lot of game mechanics to do all of this, either; Dave and Phil, at least, didn't GM that way and neither did most of the rest of us.

Please note that I am not faulting the people in that discussion - I think they are all providing a lot of really good information and ideas! It's just so different in play style from what I'm used to, that's all.

And of course as we find out more about medieval fighting styles we discover things like "half-swording" and other techniques to choke up on long weapons for use in short spaces. And when all else fails, there's always the short falchion as a way to let somebody know you care.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

And of course as we find out more about medieval fighting styles we discover things like "half-swording" and other techniques to choke up on long weapons for use in short spaces. And when all else fails, there's always the short falchion as a way to let somebody know you care.

Well, yes; medieval fighting persons (see also the fearasome Scandinavian ladies) were out ti kill their opponents, not score points. Form and style were likely not a concern for them; simple survival, by "making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" was the victory condition.

Mace for chitin and exoskeletons; short sword for flesh and blood, that's me motto, gov...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

This has been in the forefront of my mind since a rather unhappy conversation I had at a party on Friday, and I'd like to float it for people to comment on...

I have, as has been mentioned a few times in the course of this thread and the one before it, a pretty 'ancient' outlook and style of gaming. Has this any use or relevance in today's gaming hobby? Or, am I wasting everyone's time and bandwidth by carrying on and on and on about how we used to do things back in the day?

This has also come up in conversations with game designers who e-mail me and want me to push their products on my blog. I've never played any of their games, nor are they the kind of thing that I'm interested in playing. None of them seem to have read anything on the blog, nor do they seem to care; it feels like they got my e-mail address off the blog, and are 'cold calling', and gotten the blog's URL off of some list that they saw on some Internet 'list of websites" or something. I've tried to explain who I am and where I come from, and I keep getting blank looks - they know who Mike Mearls is, for example, but not Dave Arenson or Gary Gygax.

Friday's conversation kind of left me cold, and did nothing to enhance my interest in the modern or local gaming scene. I was having the conversation with one of the people I used to know at CSA back in the day, and I got the very real impression that I'm both obsolete and useless to the modern gamer.

Am I wasting your time with my games, my stories, and my miniatures? Inquiring minds want to know...

You're not wasting my time, at all. I actually volunteered to teach other people a style of Refereeing that's at least inspired by what I've read from you and the Glorious General! (It's going to happen on Myth Weavers, in case you want to sneak a peak).

We're probably not going to play Tekumel, but I wouldn't rule out something very close to Barsoom...

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

It is unfortunately true that neophilia has a strong hold in this hobby and that any number of people will tell you that anything that isn't the latest and greatest is bad just because it isn't the latest and greatest. On the other hand, a wise man once said "I do not seek the approbation of idiots."

And kudos to Gronan for the last statement.

Originally Posted by Gronan of Simmerya

And of course as we find out more about medieval fighting styles we discover things like "half-swording" and other techniques to choke up on long weapons for use in short spaces. And when all else fails, there's always the short falchion as a way to let somebody know you care.

Also, there are techniques that are specifically made for fighting with long weapons in corridors. For example, one of the main cuts from the side in Katori Shinto ryu is meant to allow a cut where there's a wall on your side, or so I've been told (I'm not practicing it, but the cut looked nice, tight but sharp).
And in order for someone to get to you in a narrow corridor, they have to pass through the barrier of a long blade. Lack of room for manoeuvring only makes that harder...

Originally Posted by chirine ba kal

Well, yes; medieval fighting persons (see also the fearasome Scandinavian ladies) were out ti kill their opponents, not score points. Form and style were likely not a concern for them; simple survival, by "making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" was the victory condition.

Mace for chitin and exoskeletons; short sword for flesh and blood, that's me motto, gov...

Why, I'm sure form and style were a concern for them. The kind of "does this form give me an advantage" concern.

Totally agree with your point regarding exoskeletons, Uncle!
Chitin is nice, though. If you dent it, you can switch to a shortsword and get to the softer insides in a moment, if you're good. Then you have an almost intact natural armour left after you're done!
I wonder whether the ants over there would help me cleaning it up. And the nephew said he knows an armourer that can make something nice for me, provided appropriate materials and inducements can be delivered.

Originally Posted by AsenRG

You're not wasting my time, at all. I actually volunteered to teach other people a style of Refereeing that's at least inspired by what I've read from you and the Glorious General! (It's going to happen on Myth Weavers, in case you want to sneak a peak).

We're probably not going to play Tekumel, but I wouldn't rule out something very close to Barsoom...


And kudos to Gronan for the last statement.

Also, there are techniques that are specifically made for fighting with long weapons in corridors. For example, one of the main cuts from the side in Katori Shinto ryu is meant to allow a cut where there's a wall on your side, or so I've been told (I'm not practicing it, but the cut looked nice, tight but sharp).
And in order for someone to get to you in a narrow corridor, they have to pass through the barrier of a long blade. Lack of room for manoeuvring only makes that harder...

Why, I'm sure form and style were a concern for them. The kind of "does this form give me an advantage" concern.

Totally agree with your point regarding exoskeletons, Uncle!
Chitin is nice, though. If you dent it, you can switch to a shortsword and get to the softer insides in a moment, if you're good. Then you have an almost intact natural armour left after you're done!
I wonder whether the ants over there would help me cleaning it up. And the nephew said he knows an armourer that can make something nice for me, provided appropriate materials and inducements can be delivered.

That's good to hear! Keep us posted, please - link?

I'm sure that there were - if not formal schools or training, out back of the tents with one of the veterans...

Yep; my mace was my 'Pe Choi cracker'; they're quick and fast, but they bleed out quick if you can get in a good hit. Makes them a little cautious in melees, but that gives us an advantage...