These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000. A large portion of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain from sharing this data with non list members. When the list ended, it was urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it seemed like a good idea all around. I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site. Many Thanks. Chris Davis Moderator: Blue Room mailing list Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND BLUE ROOM ARCHIVE -- VOLUME 28 [15 October 1998 - 27 November 1998] 811: Legion of Ketl 812: More Reality of Tekumel 813: Worms of Night 814: Crystalline Daggers 815: Hluss and/or Serudla 816: UCon Notice 817: Human Sacrifice 818: More Language 819: More Language 820: Genetics-was Nluss 821: The Worms of Night 822: Reality/Hypotheis about Current Situation on Tekumel 823: Chaigari 824: More on Language 825: More Legion of Ketl 826: He'esa 827: More Change Worship 828: Many Topics 829: More Change Worship 830: More Old Gamers 831: Thursday Night Summaries 832: More on Maps 833: More Religious Items 834: More Food of the Ssu 835: More Assassin's Weapons and Poetry 836: More Party Mix 837: Northeast Frontier Information 838: More Assassin's Weapons 839: Mrelu and the Tsolyani Calendar 840: Animal Sacrifice ******************************* //811 [Moderator's Note: Peter Huston writes to remind us that the predominate ] [ Deity worshipped by the Legion of Ketl is Belkhanu. ] Please correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the legion of Ketl worship Belkhanu? [Moderator's Note: You are correct (at least according to Deeds)! ] >Chiteng is more of a problem. It seems like only true sadists and >masochists would worship him. Who else would worship the deity of pain? >But he is the Fire-keeper, the one who feeds the flame, and so he could >also be seen as one who keeps order, even if it hurts. Not a particularly >fun god, but that role does make him more accessible, and jibes with his >popularity among police, and the Legion of Ketl. Mitlanyal mentions that >his rituals involve noon-time public burnings, and are lavish and popular >with lots of food and drink. Why so popular? I'm still a bit perplexed >on this. Maybe he also helps overcome pain? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Huston ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu:9000 or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //812 [Moderator's Note: Scott Maxwell responds to the Reality thread. ] >Everything we know about the Goddess indicates that she would be >interested in entering our dimension (this has also been vaguely alluded >to in some of the published works). We also know from Tekumel that to >enter a dimension the Pariah Gods require the active collaboration of >humans (or whatever sentients) within that dimension. I note that some >of the Pariah sigils (a potent tool) have been published. Could it be >that the Tekumel "hobby" is part of the Goddess's plan slowly to wedge >open a window into our world? Is it possible that some Blue Room >subscribers are knowingly complicit with the Goddess or even He'eksa? >Could the rest of us be unconsciously aiding the Goddess's plans? Is >this, in fact, the "Central Mystery of Tekumel"? I don't know about this, but I am a follower of the One Other and He is very interested in becoming the head honcho of this plane. But I must say that I resent Him being numbered among the Pariah Gods. Is He not one of the dieties to place a seal on the Doomed Prince's prison? Is he not the tenth seal? (Many seem to think that means he is the least because of it. HA!) Are there not many planes where the One Other is, in fact, the sole diety, and are they not fairly nice people? Please, if this is some plot to have the Goddess of the Pale Bone enter this reality, stop it. And come to the One Other, He is our only hope. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu:9000 or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //813 [Moderator's Note: Joe Saul responds about the Worms of Night. They are ] [ actually found in the Sourcebook, under the Assassin's ] [ weapon listsings. The worms are put in stasis inside the ] [ clay "coins" and when they break, the worms come out, ] [ burrow into the victim and kill him. Apparently there is ] [ some deal between the Assassins and the Sarku priests. ] >How come worms of the night aren't in the bestiary? Because they're in the spell list. I forget whether the spell has the same name in S&G Vol. 2, but it's called "Vermification" in Gardasiyal, and it's a Sarku Temple Spell. The "Worms of the Night" are created by a high-level variant of the spell. Joe Saul ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu:9000 or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //814 [Moderator's Note: Joseph Hooperman adds some info about the crystalline ] [ daggers mentioned in Peter Huston's message. ] One of those crystalline, acid- (or whatever-) filled daggers also turned up in The Man of Gold; it was used by Simanuya the glass-blower/tomb-robber in the Underworld under Purdimal (chapter 37). I also had a question: How many (if any) of the epics/legends/folk-tales/etc. exist in at least summary form? I would love to be able to find out more about the Lament to the Wheel of Black, or to hear the tales of Subadim the Sorcerer. [Moderator's Note: That's an interesting question. Are there any summaries] [ (especially you guys in Minneapolis)? If not, would it ] [ be feasible for the Professor to tape summaries for ] [ transcription? ] Joe Hoopman hoopmanjh@aetna.com ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu:9000 or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //815 [Moderator's Note: Peter Huston corrects me about Hluss spitting acid. Is ] [ this an error in Qadardalikoi or can the Hluss really ] [ spit an acidic substance, Professor? ] No! It's in Qadardalikoi, but the author may have been thinking of the Serudla and mistyped or something, I suppose. [I checkd with Phil, and this was his reply. Chris ] ["I suspect that Hluss do not spit "acid" but, if anything, spit a stream of] [poisoned saliva. I wouldn't be surpised if it contained chemicals to which ] [human skin is highly allergic. At any rate, this is not a "military weapon!] >Let me ask another question. One of the miniature rules has Hlyss spitting >acid on people? Do Hlyss spit acid? I can find no mention of it anywhere >else? >[Moderator's Note: You are probably thinking of the Serudla. Very nasty ] >[ things when they want to be. Only times I ever met them] >[ they were in a decent mood, and I wasn't hunting them or] >[ otherwise bothering them. A good plan, usually. ] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu:9000 or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //816 [Moderator's Note: First a big apology to Joe for the tardiness of this ] [ posting. This is the latest I have on UCon, a con that ] [ occurs next weekend. ] Joe sent me a pdf of the Tekumel track of the con. I have placed it on the the ftp site. It is sitting on the main level of the site, where you land when you initially log in. It is called 98tektrk.pdf. You shold receive 5 more messages today, and 5 a day for the next week. That is the quantity that has backed up over the last few weeks. Chris -- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //817 [Moderator's Note: Peter Huston asks about human sacrifice and if it was used] [ in the times pre-dating Pavar. My guess is yes, since ] [ Vimuhla was worshipped in pre-Pavar times. ] I have a question. It is my understanding that human sacrifice is most common among peoples without large, valuable draft animals. (The thought being that people with large animals will sacrifice them instead of their neighbors, if they feel the need to offer sacrifices to the God (s) .) On Tekumel there are some strange wrinkles added. Although the Chlen beasts are large, there are no riding beasts. (Can the Chlen pull a plow? I forget. Is there another animal that can do this in its stead?) More significantly, however, there are beings like Gods who demand the sacrifice of humans (or at least like the sacrifice of humans.) So here's the question, did the religious sacrifice of humans on Tekumal predate Pavar's contact with the "Gods" or did it began at this time? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Huston ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //818 [Moderator's Note: Peter Huston comments on the proto-language question. ] I believe its clearly stated in the rules/source books that there was a common language among the humans who came to Tekumel but it was not English based. Now, for the record, a common language used for trade is not the same as a "universal language." I would assume that since humans everywhere modify language constantly, evolving into accents into dialects into languages, the humans of 60,000AD probably had quite a few truly interesting languages and, atomic war or no, I would bet some of these were descended from English but changed beyond recognition. Seems perhaps some English speaking folks would've made it in places like South Africa, New Zealand, Hawaii, wherever, not to mention the acceptance of English as a useful "common language" in places like the Philippines and India, and elsewhere. But it is clearly stated that there is a common, non-English based language among the first humans to settle and visit Tekumel, and that this was the commonly used language on the space lanes for most purposes. In fact in the original EPT rulebook it clearly states on p. 107 that "the Lingua Franca of Humanspace" was a mixture of Tamil, Arabic and Mayan. (I just looked it up.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Huston ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //819 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff comments on the proto-language topic. ] "...Thus the combination of ancient and existing languages of Tekumel could allow scholars to reconstruct my hypothetical proto-language. "My question for the Tekumel gurus out there is this: either has this been done, or were the Tekumel languages designed with this in mind? If it has been done, I would be very interested in the steps in the evolution." Brother Simpson is right-- those are some FAT assumptions regarding the 'arresting of evolution.' Arthur Clarke was fond of that one, back in the 1950s: that the invention of sound recording would 'freeze' language at that point. It has, of course, done no such thing; the recordings change over time, as listening to 1930s radio shows or films will demonstrate. As to the Tekumel languages, they were designed by an experienced linguist. They appear to resemble each other precisely to the extent that such languages actually would, but they were of course created 'as is,' rather than as ongoing products of some labor-intensive evolution. -- Even so, they are immensely refreshing, not to mention engaging: I had actually made fair progress at learning to speak Tsolyani before more pressing matters made my life busier. It actually works as a language-- though it's a skull-buster for an English-speaker... This is such an improvement over these hack-work 'fantasy authors' who posit non-industrial, low-energy civilizations, yet blithely assume a global 'universal language,' existing essentially unchanged across continents and oceans. In thus revealing their own laziness, they leave conveniently aside the quetion of how this happy state of affairs can exist without continuous global communication-- if even then... I must agree with Br'er Simpson in one other matter: Even if the settlers of Tekumel did speak a common tongue, the staggering span of time since then renders this a matter of no more importance than whatever language the Neolithic mammoth-hunters spoke. All such traces have been swept away: Any presumed 'proto-language' of the Khishan family would be no less utterly alien than its modern-day descendants. G. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //820 [Moderator's Note: Ian Atkinson writes about the genetics question. While ] [ interesting, this is getting more about genetcis than ] [ Tekumel. If you want to further comment on this topic ] [ let's try to get back to Tekumel. ] I read a while ago in the New Scientist about a survey on birthweights of children of women who were pregnant during periods of scarcity in the 2nd world war. Not surprisingly, the children had low birthweights and smaller heights at adult age. Of interest was that *their* children were also smaller, both at birth and in adulthood. It is known that in mice developing embryos can "know" whether a gene comes from the mother or the father: only paternal genes are expressed in placenta formation. The likely mechanism here is methylation of genes in either the egg or the sperm to tag them as having come from a particular parent. It is conceivable that growth & size related genes may also be tagged for emphasis or de-emphasis during sperm/egg formation to provide a limited version of Lamarkian feedback from parent to offspring. Since sperm are formed during adulthood while the ovaries form eggs while the female is still in utero this would work differently between the sexes. All of this is speculative, but if there's any truth to it then the height increases seen in current populations are partially due to improvements in nutrition one or two generations ago and the limits to growth of a really well nourished human population remain unknown. Until different racial groups have all enjoyed western style food supplies for a couple of generations we have no way of knowing if there are any inherent height differences between the races. Ian. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //821 [Moderator's Note: I sit corrected. Joe is absolutely correct. ] >[Moderator's Note: Joe Saul responds about the Worms of Night. They are ] >[ actually found in the Sourcebook, under the Assassin's ] >[ weapon listsings. The worms are put in stasis inside the ] >[ clay "coins" and when they break, the worms come out, ] >[ burrow into the victim and kill him. Apparently there is ] >[ some deal between the Assassins and the Sarku priests. ] Uh-uh. That's the Worms of Death. The clay coin thing is the T-10 variant of the spell, but it only imprisons the less dangerous kind of worm. The T-9 variant creates Worms of Night, which are nastier than Worms of Death. Joe ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //822 [Moderator's Note: Keith Dalluhn responds to the Reality of Tekumel ] [ message. Very interesting hypotheses Keith. Sorry ] [ to have missed seeing you on Thursday night. ] The reality of Tekumel question has been posted before. I tend to look at it in another way. We all know the tree analogy of Tekumel. How all the planes are like branches of a tree. Taking this as a given and transfering it to our own reality gives us our own tree. Now, planes of existence have times that travel at different speeds than the one you are on. Sanjesh spent 30 years with Pavar studying Thumis, yet when he came back, it was if only seconds had gone by to the people around him. There are also places where it works the other way, you leave and come back in what for you was a second, but for those aorund you it was days. I hypothesize that time moves in waves like light and that there are some planes that are in synch and those that are out of synch. There would also be a third set that is sometimes in synch and sometimes out of synch. Test it yourself. The next time you are in a car at a stop light getting ready to turn. Time your turn signal with the guy in front of you. There are times when his will match your flashing exactly, but soon the will fall out of synch only to catch up with each other again. Given all of this, Tekumel is simply our own plane branched off way far in the distance and moving in a time synch excedingly faster than our own, but that is now in synch for a while. It has advanced to the point to where Tekumel the game is now. In gaming with Phil, I have sat in his basement mesmerized as he is providing descriptions of places or things. He will actually stop for a moment, close his eyes and concentrate as if he is reaching through to look at the item, room or person. There is also the stuff that happens that is so inconsequential at one point in time, but that turns around and appears far later. Dhichune's talk with Fu shi at the end of man of gold was nothing untill many years later when Dhichune took the throne. I also offer the following: This is a message I sent out to the group that plays at Phil's. A little history is necessary. The plot we are involved in now revolves aroung the Mu'ugalavyani using these large stones in patterns around cities to effectively negate all but the most powerful magics. Our attempts to destroy these stones have been fairly fruitless. Bob Alberti and I were looking through the Book of Ebon Bindings to see if anyone in there would be helpful. I started fumbling though the old Tekumel journals and hit on the paragraph quoted below. Soon things started falling in place. You have to remember, the Journal article was written *22* years ago, and a guy who gets about 3 column inches of type has plotted the whole invasion of Salarvya. There is no way that Phil could have dreamed this up 22 years ago and just drug it out now. Here is the message: This is going out to the Thursday night group. We must first start wayyyyyyyy back in time to the Dragon Warriors. The dragon warriors were the fiercest warriors that Tekumel had ever seen. They ruled over one of the largest empires ever known. It was during this time that Vimuhla showed his face and the Dragon warriors began the worship of him. Even their shaman were powerful. Now, move forward a few years. To Queen Nayari. More commonly known as the Bednalljan times. She was able to plot, and sleep her way to the top. Once there she wasted no time in securing her place in history. It is said that her husband was "cast into the sealed shrine of the goddess of the pale bone in the labyrinths beneath Jakalla." She also sent armies to conquer Mu'ugalavya; where the last remnants of the dragon kings, the princes of Muugalavya were "gobbled up like grain thrown before fowl." My guess is that she employed the stones given to her by the pariah deities to negate whatever power was left to the Dragon Warriors. But what does this have to do with today? I quote from the first Tekumel Journal, published in 1977: One of the most respected scholars on the temple of Thumis is the high scholar Visarga Kuyumaenish a man of about 75 years of age who dwells at the temple of Thumis in Ssa'atis in Mu'ugalavya. As his name indicates he is of Muugalavyani descent. His field is history, particularly that of the Bednalljan period, and his scholarship is famed throughout the human lands of Tekumel. He is uninterested in doctrinal disputes and has little patience for anything but his chosen field. He began as a soldier in the Mu'ugalavyani army many years ago and took an interest in the priesthood only after he had attained the rank of Colonel. He then studied history and travelled to a great many sites in several countries. His skill at identifying and using ancient artifacts is legendary, and scholars flock to his lectures in the Hall of the Four Niches in the red palace in Ssa'atis. My Hypothesis: This bastard stumbled across some ancient text that described how Nayari used the stones against Mu'ugalavya during her reign. Being a general he seized the opportunity to regain the power they had during the time of the dragon warriors. If you read about the dragon warriors they took over Mu'ugalavya first, then moved south to the shen lands before turning east into Tsolyanu. The exact same plan that is now going on. His "travels to a great many sites in many countries" was probably nothing more than a scouting mission to find the best places to lay the stones in each of those countries. And to seal it up further, why would a colonel of a Mu'ugalavyani army turn suddenly to a worshiper of a "peaceful" faith from an entirely different country? My guess is that he needed the guise to travel freely and use the libraries because a worshipper of the goddess would be allowed neither! All of this firmly ensconces me into the realm of people who believe that Tekumel does exist and Phil simply channels things through. There is no way that this stuff could be an accident, and no way that a simple paragraph about a guy written 22 years ago could somehow just happen to come back like this. -Keith the slightly terrified. You can take all of this or leave it. These are just my thoughts. Scary as they may be. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //823 [Moderator's Note: Michael Schwartz sends an anonymous treatise on ] [ Chaigari. If you wrote it, stand up and take a bow.] Hey folks, The following is the transcription of a type-written manuscript of unknown authorship which I found amongst the miscellaneous Tekumel materials in the collection of my friend, Michael Trout. I post it here, complete and more or less unaltered... I made spelling corrections and removed all "crossed-out" characters only. It is obviously based on EPT-era "Tekumel reality", as the borders of Chaigari then included Hekellu. Some facts herein also contradicts material written by Andrew Lorince, who was appointed Governor of Fenul by the Professor at some point in the early- to mid-80s... specifically the mention of the lack of iron mines in the region. If the author is still active in Tekumel circles, please come forward and take credit for this excellent short work. ---------- [NOTE TO MY PLAYERS: The material herein should not be considered hard fact, as far as our campaign is concerned. An "updated" document will be provided to you which will better jibe with the more recent "facts" I have uncovered.] ---------- A Description of Chaigari Protectorate 1. Geography Two main terrain features dominate Chaigari protectorate, Kakri Midallu peak and its surrounding ranges, and the Kanayagari River. Kakri Midallu is the youngest of the three major mountain ranges in the vicinity, the others being Tlani Hidallu peak and the oldest being the Chayengar range. All of these ranges have been caused by the collision of the Salarvyani continent with that containing Tsolyanu. Even though Tekumel lacks the uranium in its core which keeps the Earth's core fluid, its larger size led to a greater release of gravitational energy when it collapsed to provide a much larger fluid core with a longer cooling time. That plus the larger energy it received from its sun (until recently by geological time) have combined to give Tekumel a fluid core and a plastic mantle. This leads to volcanoes, earthquakes, and continental drift. Since continents are more common than oceans on Tekumel, continent-continent collisions are more common than continent-ocean collisions. Continent-continent collisions are spectacular. The Himalyas of northern India are the product of a continent-continent collision and are the highest mountains on Earth. Lake Baikal in the Soviet Union sits in a hole caused by a fault resulting from that collision, even though it is over 1500 km away from the point of impact. In this case, the Tsolyani-Salarvyani continent moving north collided with the eastward moving Yan Koryani-Jannuvyani continent. In the Chaigari region the initial impact created a series of east-west trending overthrusts which flung up the Chayengar range and another series of ranges south of it. The Kanayagari river runs in a gap between these ranges. After the initial collision, the Salarvyani portion of the continent rotated first one way, flinging up a series of northeast-southwest trending overthrusts on top of the east-west ones, and then the other throwing up more overthrusts in the northwest-southeast direction. Where these secondary overthrusts overlapped the original east-west overthrusts, mountains were piled on top of mountains. The results are the spectacular Tlani Hidallu and Kakri Midallu peaks. In the course of all of this, the 10 km thick continental crust of Salarvya was shortened by a hundred kilometers. All of that rock went up. The other major geographic influence on the Chaigari is the Kanayagari river. For the best part of 50 million years there has been a Kanayagari river winding back and forth across its valley, working and reworking it. The valley is broad, flat, and steep-walled with a thick soil layer regularly recharged with fresh loam eroded from the mountains and brought down by fast flowing streams. 2. Geology The mountains immediately north and south of the Kanayagari river are the oldest and hence the most eroded in the region. In some cases only the metamorphosed core of the original mountain remains, yielding marble, slate, and a few heat produced gem stones. In other places, whole cliff faces of sandstone and limestone present themselves for easy quarrying for building materials. A type of coal can also be found, but it is purplish in colour and extremely malodorous. Any who can afford to use charcoal. Seeps of oil are also found here and there in the Chaigari, but this is particularly nasty stuff, evil smelling and extremely corrosive. Areas around such pools are devoid of normal life, although Food of the Ssu can be found growing there, and any who fall into such a pool could well find it the most unpleasant experience of their rapidly diminishing lives. 3. Agriculture The broad, rich valley of the Kanayagari is somewhat cooler than the dusty plains of the Imperium and although Dna grain is cultivated, harder grains such as wheat are more common here. As well, many specialty fruits and vegetables not commonly available in the Imperium are available here, but the reverse is also true. High quality Ngalu fruit does not flourish here and therefore the Chaigari produces little decent wine with the possible exception of Fenul. Some of its berry concoctions are drinkable and mildly amusing to the connoisseur. Those who can afford to, import wine. Hekellu is somewhat well-known, however for the quality of both its wheat and barley beers. Chaigari is chiefly known for its animal husbandry and land too poor to grow crops is used to graze the huge herds of chlen, hma, and hmelu, chlen at the lowest and hmelu at the highest. Final fattening of animals is often done at the lower elevations in recently harvested fields or fields allowed to lie fallow. This also helps enrich the fields. 4. Ethnicity Chaigari protectorate was conquered from the Salarvyani a little over three hundred years ago and many of its citizens claim Salarvyani descent. Most of these live in and around the town of Fenul. Since the conquest there has been a steady stream of political refugees and more recently refugees from ssu activities. Also some wealthier Salarvyani choose to reside in Fenul owing to the lower and more consistent Tsolyani tax structure. Hekellu contains few Salarvyani, by contrast. Hekellu was rather badly damaged during the conquest and since it was already long overdue for Ditlana, the town was leveled and built anew. Many of the Salarvyani left at this time and were replaced by Tsolyani. Tsolyani had been colonizing the area for some time prior to the conquest in any case. Today only the lake fishing clans and some of the merchant clans claim direct Salarvyani descent, and even these people appear to be Tsolyani due to intermarriage. Tsolyani form most of the population of Hekellu with the exceptions noted above and except for some native menials. Tsolyani also dominate, if not form the majority of the population of the area around Hekellu and the Kanayagari river as far east as the big bend. These areas have been heavily colonized by agricultural clans from Ferinara and Sokatis. Of the Tsolyani in Hekellu, most are from eastern based clans of scribes and officials and also merchant and transportation clans. Tsolyani in Chaigari average 1-2 cm taller than their cousins in the Imperium owing to a diet higher in protein. Most of the mountainous areas and portions of the river valley are populated by indigenous Chaigari tribesmen. These people owe a great deal ethnically to the Kilillamuyani and Jannuvyani stock. Short and of wiry build, they are poor agriculturalists, being at best subsistence level farmers. They are far better herdsmen, hunters and mountaineers. Lately they have been used as miners and quarrymen. Although their small stature suits them to mining, their light builds do not. There are better miners to be found elsewhere in the Imperium and some of these have begun moving into the area. Their language has been identified as a dialect of Jannuvyani, but has borrowed a great deal from Tsolyani and Salarvyani. Because they tend to be quite insular, large variations in dialect can be found from mountain valley to mountain valley. In the north and west the Tsolyani influences dominate and in the south the Salarvyani becomes transcendent. Banditry is endemic among the tribesmen and while some of this may be attributed to the Kilillamuyani, the locals make up the bulk of the bandits. Tsolyani proverb, "A Chaigari herdsman is a bandit who has stolen many animals." 5. Economy The Chaigari has several major industries and it depends on the year which is the largest income earner. Mining and quarrying are the largest industries in most years, however. In various places may be found tin, lead, zinc, silver, and gold. While almost no iron production exists in Chaigari, iron is found in western Kilillamu and southeastern Milumanaya and a lot of ore finds its way to Hekellu. Most ores are concentrated in Hekellu for trans-shipment to the larger centers but there is a small domestic steel industry which supplies Hekellu armourers. Many gems and semi-precious stones are also brought out of the mountains. Jadeite, lapis lazuli, agate, carnellian, tiger eye, amethyst, and quartz are found in abundance. Opals, rubies, emeralds, garnets, diamonds, and sapphires are also found. An ornamental quartz called a Chaigar is peculiar to the foothills of Kakri Midallu peak and is found nowhere else in the world. The rich translucent brown variety and the dark blue variety with pale veining are the most valuable. The pale blue, yellow, and purple varieties are too close in appearance to other types of ornamental quartz found elsewhere to be as valuable. The Chaigari and surrounding area produce abundant building quality stone. Limestone, sandstone, and slate are so common that kiln-dried brick is rare in Hekellu and sundried brick is found as a temporary building material or in some of the river side villages. Even many of the poor live in sandstone buildings with slate roofs. The buildings of the rich, the temples, and the major public buildings are commonly faced with fine limestone and rich marbles. Gneiss and schist are also found and inlays of agate, quartz, and lapis lazuli are also seen. Basalt and granite are not to be found as the nearest sources are in the Hundranu Rise outside of Sokatis. Hekellu therefore presents a pleasing facade of red, pink, white, cream, grey, blue, and even black buildings with grey slate roofs. Ample supplies of sand, gravel, and limestone have also led to a thriving cement and concrete industry. Much of the stone for export is at least rough dressed in Hekellu or Fenul and thus the masonry clans are quite powerful in both towns. The next leading export is meat. Huge herds of hmelu and hma roam the rough ground and foothills of Chaigari. Hekellu and Fenul both have packing industries, Hekellu for shipping to the Imperium and Fenul to Salarvya. Animals for export are slaughtered in the late fall to early spring in order that they may be shipped in cooler weather. They are usually lightly salted or smoked for preservation, but not heavily so as salt or wood for smoking both have to be imported. In addition, the higher reaches of the mountains contain game animals, such as Tsi'il, which are hunted for their meat. Most such game is exported to places like Fasiltum where it is served at the feasts of the wealthy. It is considerably cheaper in Hekellu and it is a rare middle-class feast there where it is not included. Chaigari is also known for the quality of its chlen beasts. Most of these are peeled in situ but poorer armour producers are shipped out loaded as beasts of burden and sold at their destinations along with their cargoes. Some of the hides are merely treated to preserve them and shipped while others are turned into finished products in Hekellu and Fenul. There are thus several thriving armourer's clans in both towns and those in Hekellu also make some steel armour on occasion with iron ore from Kilillamu. Farming is mostly for domestic consumption and in fact dna grain often has to be brought in from Ferinara to meet needs, due to the shorter growing season and the shortage of arable land. Wheat and other rare hard grains are more common here and many of these are exported for specialty baking. The higher unit value of these grains usually means a net profit for Chaigari in most years. Fishing is also worthy of note. Lake Kanayagara produces several species of edible fish, mostly for domestic consumption. The mountain streams also produce some excellent eating fish, although not in significant quantity. There are also several species of shellfish to be found in the lake and streams and these are considered gourmet delicacies. They are caught and rushed live in tanks of water to Sokatis and Fasiltum to grace the tables of the truly wealthy. Additionally, there is a species of bottom dwelling fish in the lake which can be jigged for. While the fish itself is virtually inedible, in the fall the female produces a roe which commands a fancy price indeed at the tables of the very wealthy (up to 50K per kg in Fasiltum, more elsewhere). The fish can get up to 6 m in length and a single female can produce up to 10 kg of roe. However, a single fisherman is lucky indeed if he gets more than a bite or two in a season. They fight hard once hooked, struggling for hours or even days, and frequently escape or sink the boat and eat the fisherman. Even when a catch has been boated it is a male as often as not. There is even a small chance that a female has already laid her eggs. Although there are occasional woods and forested areas in the mountains, all hardwoods must be imported. The softwood forests of the Chaigari do produce some tall straight spars which are rafted down the river to Jakalla to make masts. These are superior to the usual hardwood masts because they do not require splicing to make a full mast and their lighter weight leaves the vessel lighter and less top heavy. Another Chaigari revenue earner is trade, between Tsolyanu and Salarvya in Fenul and Hekellu and between Tsolyanu and the states of the northeast in Hekellu. Hekellu is the effective head of navigation of the river for large barges and hence serves as headquarters for large numbers of carters, bargemen's, and mercantile clans. One clan is able through a clan secret to produce ice, even in summer. It is they who ship roe and other valuable perishables by refrigerating them. The price is very high, however, and the process is dangerous and leads to periodic damage by fire or explosion to the clan house. ---------- Michael Schwartz ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //824 [Moderator's Note: George Hammond writes on the language question. ] >[Moderator's Note: Preston Simpson chimes in on the language question. ] >A few points: >1. To state the problem briefly: 58,000 years is a long time. It would >not, to my way of thinking, be unreasonable to assume that people in >60,000 CE are sufficiently different from us modern-day humans as to >fall into a different subspecies (human, and classifiable as h. >sapiens, but *not* h. sapiens sapiens). This is especially true in the >aftermath of a nuclear war. In fact, I find it difficult to believe >that physical changes would *not* result from the passage of such a >long period of time. I'm not sure it physical changes are that likely, at least nothing that is not reflected in current human diversity, or would suggest a new subspecies. Fossil evidence suggests that modern Homo sapiens has existed for c. 500,000 years. Of course, if the nuclear war radically altered the global environment then changes are certainly possible. >3. As far as I'm willing to guess (and I'm no linguist), English is >one of the best-suited languages we have today to become a common >language, despite its idiosyncracies and outright insanities, >simply because English speakers have no qualms whatsoever about >borrowing words and phrases wholesale from other languages. That >feature, along with the social history of English-speaking peoples, >means that English is going to be around for a while. > That said, I don't think it's going to be around for 58,000 >years, not in any form even remotely resembling the one it has >today. Think about it: 58,000 years is a span of time longer than >recorded history to date by a factor of eight or nine. No >language is going to last that long in any recognizable form unless >absolutely incredible forces of linguistic stasis are at work-- >which would suggest some sort of radical change in human psychology. I think the Sourcebook says that the primary ethnic groups surviving the war were Arabic, Maya, and Tamil speakers. Given such a melange to start with, and 60,000 years pre Cataclysm and c. 25,000 after, I think you are right, it would be very difficult to associate current Tekumelyani languages with anything we are familiar with in our time. Regards, George H. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //825 [Moderator's Note: James Chapin and George Hammond further reply to the ] [ thread on which Gods the Legion of Ketl worship. Can ] [ we get any kind of impression from you Bob, or Phil. ] Jim says: -------------------- Begin Original Message -------------------- Message text written by The Blue Room Mailing List "legion of Ketl worship Belkhanu? " -------------------- End Original Message -------------------- Yes, but all the torturers of the Legion worship Chiteng, I believe. Jim Chapin ----- George Hammond says: On Thu, 15 Oct 1998, The Blue Room Mailing List wrote: >[Moderator's Note: Peter Huston writes to remind us that the predominate ] >[ Deity worshipped by the Legion of Ketl is Belkhanu. ] >Please correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the legion of Ketl worship >Belkhanu? >[Moderator's Note: You are correct (at least according to Deeds)! ] There is a conflict between sources. Deeds of the Ever-Glorious does indeed say that that most members of the Legion worship Belkhanu, and that the Legion is never known for its sadism or violence. Mitlanyal however lists the Legion of Ketl as one of the military units associated with Chiteng, and describes it as "Prison guards sponsored largely by the Temple of Chiteng, but including members of all faiths". Perhaps we could get a clarification? Regards, George Hammond ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //826 [Moderator's Note: James Maliszewski asks about the He'esa. Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly are the he'esa? I understand that = they are servants of She Who Is Not to Be Named, but know little else. = Any information would be appreciated. Thanks, James Here's how I understand it. The He'esa are things that somehow inhabit a person (I don't know if the victim was willing, or unwilling.) I imagine they behave something like the keepers on Babylon 5 (if you watch it). Except they probably live within the host. They could be purely physical or purely magical beings, I am not sure which. They control and/or keep the host in line and cause him to do the will of the Goddess. When the Man of Gold was activated, it seems that the strings that tied the He'esa to this plane were cut, the He'esa either died or went back to the plane they came from and left a disgusting puddle where the host once was. If I goobered up that description, I am sure that someone from the Thursday night group will correct me. Chris ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //827 [Moderator's Note: Leonard Erickson puts forth some ideas on why some would ] [ worship the Lords of Change, particularly, Chiteng. ] >Chiteng is more of a problem. It seems like only true sadists and >masochists would worship him. Who else would worship the deity of pain? >But he is the Fire-keeper, the one who feeds the flame, and so he could >also be seen as one who keeps order, even if it hurts. Not a particularly >fun god, but that role does make him more accessible, and jibes with his >popularity among police, and the Legion of Ketl. Mitlanyal mentions that >his rituals involve noon-time public burnings, and are lavish and popular >with lots of food and drink. Why so popular? I'm still a bit perplexed >on this. Maybe he also helps overcome pain? Why were gladitorial combats, and public spectacles suich as throwing Christians to the lions, or sarmenti[1] and semaxi[2] so popular in ancient Rome? [1] & [2] Men and women wrapped in rags soaked in oil and pitch, then chained to posts and set afire. -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //828 [Moderator's Note: Andrew Lorince covers many topics in this message. ] [ Further note: Those of you new members waiting for back] [ message digests, they will be coming. I'll try to wade ] [ through them all tonight. ] mature gamers if you are wondering what to do with all that tekumel role-playing info you've accumulated try what i've been working on. i've taken all the characters i've generated and those sent to me in dispatches as well as dispatches sent to the various tekumel fanzines and any responses received plus lots of other material and am combining it into a Fenul book. i figure with a city population of 100-200 thousand and at least one or two million in the rest of chaigari and adjacent areas there is a place for almost everyone. or you might consider approaching gaming or sf cons and offer to run demo games or just find an area there spread out your tekumel books and see what develops. i met a tlakotani princess who played in Prof Barker's campaign this way. i have a standing policy that at any of these cons where i can find two players at the same time i will run a game. I am scheduled to run tekumel miniature events at UCON and possibly a role-playing event. language from what i've seen the increase in communication speed has caused english to change much more rapidly. just look at the acronyms that have come into everyday use in the media, conversations and on the web. politics i know that we here in fenul and surrounds have been in a dimensional warp of sorts since hirkane passed on. we get some information in but can't get anything out. when did mirusiya replace dhich'une and is eselne dead or alive? by the way how could somebody out here in the boondocks identify the emperor if someone showed up at the gates naked and claiming to be hirkane. (he is being well cared for by the temple of avanthe) maps when i started experimenting with tekumel back when EPT first came out i developed a sysem of sub hexs, on the same scale as the northwest frontier maps, for determining terrain, resources and sites of intrest, this method was suitable for use in solitary gaming when a party was exploring a hex and didn't know what they were looking for. unfortunatly i lost my masters somewhere between detroit and pittsburgh, but i still have individual hex info and can regenerate them again. food of the ssu out here in fenul the stuff is everywhere. we know it favors swampy terrain and spreads like many other weeds. we don't try to destroy it unless it is a danger to citizens just post the areas and try to avoid them. no one has ever reported that it was cultivated on the surface even in ssuyal. we know that the ssu use human slaves to keep patches clear of our plants, but this is very rare. the only other reference to a use for it is found in a monograph being prepared for the fenul book. it is called "siyuzharin kukurikh hi ahoggyamuonyal lel charneilikh" by ahoggyamunger hi avanthe 'eshanmolain hi'estadata. he writes ..."i even identified a ring that harvest food of the ssu, which the ahoggya favor as a source of a carapace dye which is pleasing to their eyes, although barely visible to me."... andy lorince yuninash hi'ancholbel governor of fenul ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //829 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker comments on the worshippers of the Lords] [ of Change. ] Some clans and lineages traditionally worship one of the Lords of Change. There are regional preferences and there are economc benefits from having your own clan deal with another clan worshipping the same deity. For example, we (my clan) worship Lord Hru'u; we might give a slight preference, therefore, to another clan worshipping Hru'u or Wuru. We don't *exclude* non-Change business contacts, but there is just a slight bit of closeness, rather like a Presbyterian who has a choice of a fellow Presbyterian or a Methodist. >> Despite the enlightening help of the Bob Alberti's "Mitlanyal", I >>still have a hard time understanding of the roles of some of the Gods of >>Change. I understand that the average "Tsolyani on the street" is quite >>moderate in his/her beliefs and religious intensity, The average Tsolyani is probably a "time-server": motivated more by daily humdrum concerns than by religious zeal. But he/she still has an allegiance to the deity of his clan, or to one chosen by his lineage. Personal choice has also something to do with this: a somewhat more motivated seeker may change religious affiliation at will, without much fear of being brought up on heresy charges. Rather like a Hindu who particularly favours Lord Siva, but who may shift to Lord Vishnu for a variety of reasons. >>is hard to understand how some of the Tloquiriqaluyal command the loyalty >>of more than a relatively small cadre of fanatics and outlaws. Their >>driving principles seem too much at odds with the needs of their >>worshipers and the requirements of society. What is the most one can ask >>from Hru'u? Change perhaps, but apparently with no assurance that the >>change will not be catastrophically worse than the old condition. What >>does service to Ksarul gain for a hard-working agricultural clan, compared >>to the undeniable benefits of serving Avanthe? Why would any general >>prefer his troops to serve Vimuhla and Chiteng, patrons of destruction and >>atrocity, instead of Karakan and Chegarra, who reward dutiful service and >>courage? Hru'u/Wuru and Vimuhla/Chiteng in particular seem at best to be >>powers to be appeased and deflected, rather than lords whose attention one >>might desire. The gods are not just there to serve humankind and provide "bennies." Clans do not discuss their overall religious affiliation any more than a sub-caste of Saivite Hindus convene a debate on their allegiance to their deity here on Terra. Why, to take another example, did the Phoenicians and Carthaginians worship Ba'al -- and burn their infants alive in the flaming stomach-cavity of the divine image? Obviously there were promises of better profits, happiness, the satisfying of the god's commands, etc. One can see why deities of Change might appear less than desirable as objects of worship, but yet it is the habit of humankind to mulishly go right on serving them! An individual may indeed change faiths, as noted before. This is not usually done for reasons of greed, as a "player character" changes faiths because the spells in god X' list are more destructive and "fun" than in his/her previous sect. One may change because one's spouse belongs to a different faith, and there is a natural human tendency to want to please him/her. (Unlike Terra where we constantly read of marital conflicts between Protestant and Catholic spouses, or between a Christian husband or wife and a Jewish partner. ) Individuals also shift faiths in response to business pressures: e.g. my lineage-family worships Lady Avanthe, but now we're living in a region almost completely devoted to Vimuhla. Some -- not all -- of our members may change over for business and social reasons. There are indeed ideological conversions, but these are comparatively rare. Most conversions are due to social/economic reasons. >> It is even more difficult to understand why rulers have permitted >>or encouraged their worship. Hru'u and his cohort in particular seem >>utterly at odds with goals of Imperial rule. It is clear that now the >>Lords of Change are powerful enough that they cannot be eliminated >>(Empress Shaira Su's withdrawal from the gates of the City of Sarku is a >>convincing case), but how did they get that way? And why, today, in the >>time of the Concordat, are not more Tsolyani "voting with their feet" and >>worshiping deities who can better provide for them? Some of the Lords of Change were worshipped *before* Pavar's pantheon came into being. Some are traditional in certain areas: e.g. Lord Sarku in the northwestern mountains and in Do Chaka. As noted above, deities who do not "better provide for them" are not necessarily seen as useless or weak deities! What "bennies" does Lord Siva provide that Lord Vishnu does not? The god of wealth, elephant-headed Ganesh, is a son of Lord Siva, who may best be chAracterised as a "god of change," versus the "continuing cycles" focus of the Vaishnava worshippers. No, material "bennies" are not the answer, ant more than Christianity provides more goodies than Judaism. A *church* organisation may indeed be more economically or societally appealing than a synagogue in a particular time and place, but all members of the latter do not automatically come clamouring to convert! >> I have learned that for Tekumel, it is best to try to answer one's >>own questions, so here are a couple of answers to the question: "why >>are the Lords of Change so popular?" Comments, criticisms, rebuttals, are >>encouraged. >>--Easy one: Sarku. Nobody wants to die if they can avoid it. To >>"embrace the worm" is no easy matter, but at least it's clear why one >>might do it. >>--History. Vimuhla and Ksarul were worshipped long before the Lords of >>Stability were known. "The Flame is a harsh master, but he has always >>been our Lord". Tradition has great power in Tsolyani culture, so this is >>a force to be reckoned with. Still, this alone doesn't seem enough to me. >>--Maybe They Aren't As Bad As We Think. This is, imho, my innovative >>notion on this question. My impression is that often we see the >>Stability-Change continuum as equivalent to Good-Evil (and I know some >>Tekumel fans, particularly gamers, make that connection overtly). I >>recall that Dr. Barker's writing argues against equating Change and Evil, >>none the less the Change gods are given dire descriptions and seem to show >>the preferences for destruction, pain, disorder and exaggerated >>self-interest that is conventionally equated with "evil", and that the >>vast majority of people living in an organized society would try to avoid. >>But all this is only half of Change. Change is just, well, Change. >>Construction, growth, increase in strength or happiness or wealth, these >>are also changes. If these are truly deities of Change, then they will >>use and favor both destruction and construction, pain and pleasure, they >>will support and lift up as well as cast down. >>I don't think the literature to date has adequately emphasized the >>popular, constructive, socially acceptable sides of the Tloquiriqaluyal. >> >>"Dispenser of Calamities" (Hru'u), "Black Sword of Doom" (Gruganu), >>"Drinker of Blood" (Chiteng), "Mistress of Demons" (Dlamelish) >>pfeh! >>Try "Initiator of the New", "Hound of Puissant Knowledge", "Master of >>Order" and "Patroness of 1000 Delights". This isn't just spin, these >>are all valid (imho) names for the deities based on their descriptions in >>Mitlanyal. >>So allow me suggest some specifics: >> Hru'u and Wuru. They way these two are described, they are >>frightening and cruel. But they are also masters of events, and very >>powerful. Good things can happen for those that serve them. Unexpected, >>even unlikely things, but possibly very good things. These may be the >>patrons of lost causes, of desperate gamblers, and of the truly ambitious. >>They are the Lords of the Single Event. The Temple of Hnalla may always >>give old loaves of Dna-bread on the 3rd day of every week, every year. >>The Temple of Hru'u tears down 5 blocks of tenements, rebuilds them far >>better than they ever were, restores the tenants to them, and buys >>everyone who lives there new clothes and enough food to live for a year. >>Then never does it again. When the rains do not come, farmers may cry to >>Avanthe to restore the cycle. They might also ask Wuru to send the rain, >>now, this year, this season. The Lords of Stability probably won't help >>if what you need would break a cycle. But the Lords of Change might be >>happy to oblige. >>Dlamelish and Hrihayal. The descriptions are very focussed on selfishness >>and personal gratification. But remember, Dlamelish wants *everybody* to >>be having a good time, in Her name. I was confused: why would Dlamelish >>priestesses willingly couple so indiscriminantly? Why wouldn't these >>highly-sexed people be choosy, and always be looking for a better lay? >>Perhaps it is because they also serve their Goddess by getting their >>partner off. Well. Frequently. So the partner is reminded, nay, struck, >>by the importance of physical pleasure in his/her/their lives, and so take >>steps to enhance that pleasure in the future, and so become more attentive >>to the goals of the Goddess of Pleasure. These folks always throw the >>best parties. At which there will be servants of the Green Ladies who >>understand about inhibitions, and shyness, and the limitations imposed by >>one's dignity, and who know how to ease one gently and comfortably past >>those inhibitions... >>ahem. >>So anyway, posit a smart, slightly less self-indulgent version of the >>servants of Dlamelish, and one can understand the attraction. Not sure >>why priests in the service of Dlamelish are "dregs" and "perverted brutes" >>and the priestesses aren't, but maybe it has to do with Inner Rites that I >>am not aware of. I wonder if maybe most of the youth of Tekumel doesn't >>go through a Dlamelish-worshipping phase sometime shortly after puberty? >>Vimuhla and Chiteng. The fierce energy of Vimuhla's flame is seductive. >>Organizations with this much energy and purpose have a drawing power all >>their own. Mitlanyal emphasizes that this energy is controlled and >>focussed, that the religion is not about burning everything down now, but >>just the unrighteous. That makes it much more socially functional. There >>is almost a Messianic sense about it as well, in that doctrine says that >>in the end, it *all* *will* burn. That the Flamelord will come and burn >>the world away. No question that this is a powerful deity, and therefore >>attractive. Besides, even on hot world of Tekumel, the power of fire is >>one of the fundamental forces of technology. A strong draw all by itself. >>Chiteng is more of a problem. It seems like only true sadists and >>masochists would worship him. Who else would worship the deity of pain? >>But he is the Fire-keeper, the one who feeds the flame, and so he could >>also be seen as one who keeps order, even if it hurts. Not a particularly >>fun god, but that role does make him more accessible, and jibes with his >>popularity among police, and the Legion of Ketl. Mitlanyal mentions that >>his rituals involve noon-time public burnings, and are lavish and popular >>with lots of food and drink. Why so popular? I'm still a bit perplexed >>on this. Maybe he also helps overcome pain? >>Some of this is a bit at odds with the descriptions of the theology of the >>Gods. I'm not trying to revise that, just suggesting some social >>mechanisms that might be going on within the masses that worship the >>ChangeLords. I know that the masses of Tsolyani are sometimes >>characterized as being fairly non-devout, distinguished more by choices of >>garment color than spiritual outlook, but I think that is easily >>overstated. In a world where the power of deities is directly manifested, >>and so great, surely few can afford to be too indifferent to the >>principles of those deities? >>I'd be delighted to know what others think. The answers above are fairly correct and stand by themselves. People go with tradition, regional preferences, lineage choices, and personal intervention by a spouse or other loved one. In a few cases, there may be a charismatic preacher or leader who stirs up the folks with powerful speeches, "miracles," or other temptations. Most folks just go with the flow... Regards, Phil ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //830 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker comments on the old gamers thread. ] >[Moderator's Note: Many more wrote in to discuss the old gamers thread. ] I read this whole series with approval and some excitement. It is obvious, now, that "Tekumel will not die with Barker." Some of you will carry on, whether as a role-playing game (or games), CD-ROMS, novels, etc. etc. This might have been materially easier if Tekumel had not been so difficult for American and western European readers: alien creatures, strange history, unpronounceable languages, customs and religions and political motivations quite different from ours at present. Any author who introduces a "dragon" finds quick comprehension and response from his/her readers; one who must write a page describing an Ahoggya will face a lack of understanding that may cause readers to drop away out of an unwillingness to go to the trouble of learning! There really is no *proper* forum for carrying on Tekumel. All fora (is my Latin plural correct?) are proper! A story here, a painting there, a computer game, a role-playing game, a military miniatures game, a card game, a piece of music -- all have possibilities and interest for some of us. Some people may never see the attraction of Tekumel. Some think they have "outgrown" the "childish" world of role-playing. Some become overwhelmed by the material cares of this world and slowly drift away. All I can say to such people is: "Bon voyage!" Enjoy what you enjoy! (A less sympathetic person might just say, "Love it or leave it!" Regards, Phil ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //831 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff comments on the idea of summarizing the ] [ adventures of the Thursday night group. ] >[Moderator's Note: That's an interesting question. Are there any summaries] >[ (especially you guys in Minneapolis)? If not, would it ] >[ be feasible for the Professor to tape summaries for ] >[ transcription? ] Not merely interesting, but -fascinating-. Imagine the appearance from some modern-day Burton -- in Minneapolis, say-- of a 'Thousand and One Tsolyani Nights,' telling all the best-remembered tales from the Time Of No Kings. That would be... tremendous. (It might also be a lot of fun to -do-.) G. [Moderator's Note: So, whaddaya say up there in Minneapolis way... I know] [ many of you take notes (but is Steve on the list?) I ] [ don't think so. Maybe he could photocopy and mail me ] [ his notes and I could transcribe them (or we could set ] [ up a cadre of typers, as many of you have volunteered).] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //832 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to Gordon's comments on maps. ] The *idea* of a map (a two-dimensional representation of terrain features, scaled distances, roads, cities, etc.) just never seems to have taken hold amongst the picture-minded peoples of the Five Empires. >>If a "better" map is wanted, the Tsolyani draw a picture: a stylised >>portrayal of a town, etc., with figures of its residents drawn in here and >>there; cf. the box cover of the original EPT. As far as I know, there are >>no maps (either like ours or theirs) of "scenery": i.e. a "map" of a >>seacoast or mountain range that is made just to display terrain. The >>Tsolyani merchant clans require line/circle maps for economic purposes and >>do not decorate them much. The "picture maps" are for upper class clansmen >>who want to "see" what a given city looks like and who lives where in it. >Ah-hah! >Does the term 'sand table' strike a chord? It's not just the nobles >and merchants who want to 'see' what they're dealing with: Generals and >other High Command staff have pressing need to know EXACTLY what they're >facing in terms of terrain. Commanders normally use verbal descriptions and physical measurements to plan for battle. There are various records of these, often quite detailed. If, however, you were to render these as a *drawing,* chances are that viewers would not comprehend the conventions needed to represent slopes, hills, rivers, and the like. Instead, the Tsolyani would bring out an artist who would study the descriptions and construct a visual picture, often in full colour and embellised with little beings, animals, etc. I think the custom of mapping fell out of favour back in the Latter Times, when the practice of "High Cartography" was invented. The ancients had a means of shaping and engraving a single stone (sometimes a gemstone, sometimes not) with the physical, cultural, etc. data of the region it represented. A knowledgeable person could then "read" this "map" by stroking the stone and letting his fingers feel ther whorls, rises, depressions, and the like. Later, these stones were invested with Other-Planar energy, so that one actually "sees" the data in one's head -- rather like watching a National Geographic documentary. Touch a finger to Livyanu on such a stone, for example, and the viewer sees Tsamra as a living picture, hears voices telling him details of population, resources, crops, shipping, and history. This was mentioned in "Man of Gold." With "maps" like this, who needs paper? >There might not be continental relief maps (-you- essay the project >of making one. Extra credit: Invent aeroplanes for the purpose) but I'd >bet, especially after all this time, that there are downright cunning >model-makers applying the principles of architectural drafting, perspective >geometry, &c., to the creation of truly stunning 'architectural models' in >sculpted clay spanning a good many scale Tsan across. There may indeed be "continental relief maps" among the High Cartography map-stones kept in the Chancery at avanthar, or in the Library of Prince Rereshqala near Jakalla. These things are rare and precious, and I myself have never seen a really elaborate example. Most such map-stones relate only those data desired by the ancient owner for individual purposes: e.g. a fancy map-stone (a fist-sized sphere of carnelian) detailing the coast of southern Tsolyanu for sailing purposes, now sunk beneath the sea since Ganga went down. This was probably a gift from some wife or sweetheart to her beloved who happened to enjoy sailing. >'Course, what happens afterward to such efforts in >three-dimensional mapping is anyone's guess... including a shrewd >referee... (Tell -me- it wouldn't auction for a good price!) Maybe it would sell here. Map-stones of "High Cartography" sell very well on the antiquities market in Bey Su. One must be careful about fakes, of course. As for maps, the Tekumelani would probably be interested, though a little baffled. Moreover, the cultural impetus to *develop* maps and think in these unfamiliar terms would likely prevent anybody from inventing them! "Players" themselves cannot make new inventions. There are no "player characters" on Tekumel. There are only Tekumelani: people who are native to the cultural life of Tekumel and who think it its terms. Otherwise we would have had rockets, gunpowder, toothpaste, and television on Tekumel by now! These inventions require a western-scientific "mind-set" and cannot be just "deduced" or "intuited" except very rarely. The Aztecs had wheeled toys, but they never developed wheeled carts. The Chinese had the wheel and metallurgy, but they didb't develop the ricksha until some Britisher did it for them in the 1880's (I think it was). The Maya built gigantic buildings, but they never seem to have thought of the arch. Etc. Regards, Phil ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //833 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to Gordon's comments on ] [ religious items on Tekumel. I'll bring us up to ] [ Message 840 today. Still have some more. Expect them] [ to arrive sometime over the weekend. ] >You know, here's another nice thing about the setup here. In a way, >this could be an illustration for the 'Beginning Referee' debate as well. >I mean, look at it: >>I'm curious about some of the inspiration behind several of the drawings of >>religious paraphenalia and sacrifical items. Several of the sacrificial >>blades >>in the Book of Ebon Bindings look all the world like a Tibetan spirit dagger. >>Were these illustrated weapons based on Phurba's and their like? Also, do >>temples use sacrificial weapons like the ceremonial Kukris of the Ghurkas? It >>seems logical that something like this would be used for a larger animal >>sacrifice. >#No direct influence from Tibet that I know of --I probably read too many >#pulp fantasy novels during my formative years. I can't recall which ones >#produced these daggers. >#The temples of Chegarra and Karakan have "dedicated" swords that play a >#part in certain rituals, as well as serving as fighting weapons for the >#elite of their faiths... >&c., &c. >Now, my own reaction to this would be more akin to: >"Were these illustrated weapons based on Phurba's and their like?" >Yeah. Sure. It's as good an explanation as any, and it makes >illustrations available, yes? Sounds reasonable. Except that I had never seen an illustration of Phurba's daggers. I was, however, drawing illustrations of Tekumelani daggers on the margins of my school notebooks, even as a chld. I recall one teacher who thought I was particularly bloody-minded (she was right!!) and wanted to persuade me to think of *peaceful* things. I countered by drawing a sketch of a sacrifice to one of Sarku's gooiest demons! For this I caught merry hell. [Moderator's Note: I'd like it if that teacher could come to your house and] [ have dinner in your dining room, and lounge next to your] [ fireplace! ] >"Also, do temples use sacrificial weapons like the ceremonial Kukris of the >Ghurkas?" >Hey, YOU're the referee. You tell ME. You like, you have all-same, heya? >[Moderator's Note: I think we have to remember that questions like this are] >[ about the Professor's version of Tekumel. Whether or ] >[ not we use that information in our versions of Tekumel. ] Umm. There are religiously-prescribed weapons: e.g.the "silver swords" of the followers of Karakan. These are used in military rituals within the temples, and they are handed down from generation to generation as revered and near-sacred relics. >"It seems logical that something like this would be used for a larger >animal sacrifice." >I agree. Go for it. >... Now Professor Barker, aside from being a lot more POLITE about >it all, responded with considered and detailed explanations of his own >reasoning instead. > >("I probably read too many pulp fantasy novels during my formative >years." Right on, Prof: I've got the Aug 1948 'Famous Fantastic Mysteries' >right here, headlining John Taine's 'The Purple Sapphire,' with a cover >illo that'd be right on your beam.) I loved "The Purple Sapphire.! For years I had a near-complete collection of all the major pulp mags going back to "Air Wonder Stories" in 1926. When I went off to India the first time, I sold my collection for a pittance to a friend. Sad! >So you actually end up -learning more- his way than with my own >enforced-autonomy, sink-or-swim approach. That's not to say that my way is >any less VALID, y' dig: "There's no reason for MY Tekumel to be YOUR >Tekumel," the Professor says. Way I see it, if you decide that large >animals are to be STRANGLED (like, what was it, Mithras?) then, hey, who is >to say otherwise? They can make it different in THEIR version of events, >they want. >(That's why I brought up that business of linked semaphore-towers >some time back. Their existence made sense to -me-; if there was something >utterly preventative I missed, I wanted to know about it, was all.) >That's also why I haven't added anything directly to that >discussion of beginning referees: All I'd be doing is telling someone how >to set up one of MY campaigns, which aren't always to everyone's taste. >But then, what is? >G. Rational approach, say I. Players need rules and guidance only until they can prepare their own scenarios and stand on their own feet (tentacles, what-have-you). I thus urge that we aid beginners and those unfamiliar with Tekumel to the best of our abilities, but that at some point such new people must become adept enough to devise their own materials for their campaigns themselves. I myself have enjoyed playing in other people's Tekumel, as well as in D-n-D games with quite different cultural parameters. [Moderator's Note: Phil, it would be spooky running Tekumel with you as a ] [ player. :) ] Regards, Phil ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //834 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to Gordon's comments on the Food] [ of the Ssu. I am adding a question of my own at the end.] >[Moderator's Note: George Hammond gives some possible sources for the Food] >[ of the Ssu "farms" in James' message. ] >On Mon, 20 Jul 1998, The Blue Room Mailing List wrote: >>[Moderator's Note: James Maliszewski seeks confirmation of a rumor. ] >>I have received a report from a group of Khirgari adventurers currently >>operating out of Khirgar that they have uncovered a subterranean "farm" of >>the Food of the Ssu in a cavern complex beneath the fens of Komore. This >>farm seems to have been deliberately cultivated by unknown persons for >>unknown purposes. There was likewise evidence of harvesting the Food, >>although there were no signs of either the harvesters or the diabolical >>"farmers" who maintained it all. >>Has anyone else ever encountered such an unusual phenomena? If so, why would >>anyone purposely grow the Food given all of the risks involved? >I have not heard of such things anywhere but in the homeplaces of Ssu, and >would thus suspect the presence of the Enemies of Man first and foremost. >Perhaps there is something special to them about the kind of food growing >there, a vital nutriment or drug that can only be grown in Fenwaters. The >relationship between the Ssu and their Food can be complex and mysterious. I think you may be correct. I have never heard of any human or member of another nonhuman species deliberately trying to grow the Food of the Ssu: e.g. in a laboratory. The stuff seems to require marshes or fens, deep jungle,or other "wet" environments. It doesn't even grow in all of these. Probably some chemical or ingredient combined with environmental factors such as heat and humidity. >That humans or non-inimical races would take such risks seems highly >unlikely (the penalty for detection would surely be extreme), but >possible. Perhaps someone is harvesting the toxins? An assasin clan? >Given the incredibly painful effects of contacts with the Food, extracts >from them might be of value to some followers of Chiteng or Hrihayal as >well. The Ssu are considered horrid and unclean by most humans, and this would preclude followers of Chiteng and Hrihayal from making use of the stuff. The Tsolyani deities consider their practices to be "noble"; it would be very "ignoble" to rub somebody's face in the Food of the Ssu! >Or perhaps the "farm" is part of some abstruse experiment by scholars with >more ambition than sense. The Dark Trinity would seem to be especially >good candidates for something this dark and dangerous, but all temples >produce scholars of this kind. Perhaps someone is trying to create an >antidote to the Food? Not impossible, but in view of the lack of a rational "scientific" spirit, this might be unlikely. >Whoever it is, it's not likely to be anyone nice... You're right, Gordon. It is *not* anyone nice... [Moderator's Note: So why did the Priests of Ksarul develop the Food of Ssu] [ temple spell? Was it simply because it is a good offen-] [ sive and defensive spell? The plants are particularly ] [ good weapons, since they are highly toxic and have a ] [ high fear value. They also end up going away at the end] [ of the duration, so they won't stay and cause long term ] [ problems. I would imagine that any substance removed/ ] [ collected from the plant would disappear at the duration] [ of the spell, too. Just wondering. ] Regards, Phil ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //835 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies on the Assassin's Weapons and ] [ Poetry threads. ] >Moderator's Note: Joseph Hooperman adds some info about the crystalline ] >[ daggers mentioned in Peter Huston's message. ] >One of those crystalline, acid- (or whatever-) filled daggers also turned up >in The Man of Gold; it was used by Simanuya the glass-blower/tomb-robber in >the Underworld under Purdimal (chapter 37). Glass-like hollow blades filled with poison are a feared (but not very useful) assassin's weapon. They have a tendency to break when hit against something, and woe betide the poor chap who manages to sit on one! Reminds me of the little glass balls filled with oil that conveniently burst into flames when lit with a torch and tossed at a monster" in D-n-D. Real poisoned daggers exist mostly for "fear" purposes and are sometimes sent to intended future victims as warnings. >I also had a question: How many (if any) of the >epics/legends/folk-tales/etc. exist in at least summary form? I would love >to be able to find out more about the Lament to the Wheel of Black, or to >hear the tales of Subadim the Sorcerer. >[Moderator's Note: That's an interesting question. Are there any summaries] >[ (especially you guys in Minneapolis)? If not, would it ] >[ be feasible for the Professor to tape summaries for ] >[ transcription? ] None of the epics exists in English in any form! I am not a very good poet (in any language), and I also have neither time nor energy to do them as they should be done. There are also many languages involved -- and also many recensions, done at different historical periods by different people with different goals. Some of these just focus on different events (e.g. a "Vimuhla" version of the "Lament to the Wheel of Black" devotes many verses to the glories of the Flame, while a Sarku version speaks of the might and power of that deity (most frequently termed "The Worm with Five Heads" in the epics). I have never seen a version done for the One Other, although the Naqsai priests (of the continent off the present maps to the southwest) insist that there is one). Not every one of Pavar's pantheon has a version, either; the Cohorts do not, except for Chiteng, Wuru, and Gruganu. These tend to be like "extracts" from the longer versions used by their respective deities. Wish I could help, but...! [Moderator's Note: You raise an interesting question for me Phil. What part] [ did Gruganu play in the Battle. I would assume he stood ] [ with Ksarul. Why was he not imprisoned similarly? ] Regards, Phil ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //836 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to the topic of party mix. ] "Party mix" is what we call a bowl of "mixed nuts" where I come from. ??? [Moderator's Note: If the shoe fits.... :) ] In any case, when one is playing a *game,* a good mix maximises your chances: for a "stability" party, you need Karakan lads to fight, Avanthe priests to produce breathable air, Thumis and Ketengku devotees to heal and analyse things, Hnalla priests to do certain spells, and Belkhanu personnel to get you safely off across the Planes! The same is true of Change parties. We have had some parties that were so mixed that they had almost no central goal, except as the players desired, and they were occasionally upset by factionalism: e.g. "Arumel's Ecumemical Army," which wandered all over Milumanaya during the recent war. It had every conceivable sect in it, including the One Other, the Goddess of the Pale Bone, and so on... We enjoyed it, but it was a "game" creation; it did not reflect a realistic picture of how such groups work. In "real" Tekumel terms, such mixes do not often exist. The Concordat prohibits members of opposing sects from simply killing one another off, but there is a lively rivalry to obtain one's ends before the opponents can. Members of rival sects, even some that are otherwise on the same side, may keep secrets, try for objectives not disclosed to the others, and generally act just a trifle unfairly with the others. Play these issues as you wish. I know how hard it is to separate "game" matters from "real Tekumel." People often jump into rivers, engage in a battle, etc. in order to save another "player character," even when the latter is a member of s different sect or faction. This is unavoidable, I suppose. The game itself imposes its own "ethics" upon the group, just as it is "immoral" for two players of Monopoly to conspire to work together to defeat one or more opponents or a coalition. The players of D-n-D and Tekumel have to co-operate in order to keep relations at the gaming table happy -- and also in order to maximise their chances. [Moderator's Note: William Nock comments on the Beginning Ref thread. ] > >I'm in a real commenting mood! My deep sympathies to Peter Huston over the >Centaurs. I'd have loved to play a Centaur with a herd. (It's always >bothered me the way groups of players have non matching characters. Like >in D&D - the party's so often an elf, a dwarf etc. Other people are >parties of elves OR dwarves or whatever.) But nobody offered me the chance >to play in a Centaur herd. (Don't feel sorry for me. I've >played lots of great games and I think the DM I play with is probably one >of the best in the world. *smile*) > >[Moderator's Note: While this isn't specifically Tekumel, it is interesting.] >[ Party mix is always of importance it seems in role play- ] >[ ing games. This is because a well balanced party always ] >[ seems to have a better chance of success than a homog- ] >[ enous group. A group of all fighters might be blown away] >[ by a group of all mages (from a distance), on the other ] >[ hand the fighters might carve them up into shisk-kabob if] >[ they caught them weakened from a battle, or were undetec-] >[ ted until they attacked. Of course, this mix allows for ] >[ wonderful intra-party tension! :) ] Are you sure you *want* intra-party tension? This can be quite nerve-wracking. Waiting for character X to knife you in the back, when you have just saved him from a mob of howling monsters -- this can be frustrating! [Moderator's Note: I said tension, not murder! :) ] Regards, Phil ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //837 [Moderator's Note: Brett Slocum provides some information about the ] [ Northeast Frontier maps. ] >[Moderator's Note: Leonard Erickson offers some ideas about scanning the ] >[ northeast frontier maps. ] >>[Moderator's Note: Professor Barker answers a question about the Temple of] >>[ Jneksha'a from Charles Martin. ] >>>In IMJ II 1 (Fall 2358 A.S.) there is a reference to a map series for the >>>Pass of Skulls, complementing the Northwest Frontier set. Does this exist, >>>perhaps in remnants that could be released to the FTP site? >> >>Six maps of the north*east* frontier were done, going from Sunraya and >>Tleku Miriya over to Saa Allaqi. These large maps (same size as the maps >>for the North*west* frontier) were supposed to be published but never made >>it. Keith Dalluhn also worked on the gazetteer for them, but I don't >>recall that he ever finished it. I have a set of these maps, but they are >>too big to be scanned in -- not with my little scanner! Otherwise I have no >>objection if somebody wants to look at them or even put them into some >>usable electronic format. >I think some of the copying outfits (such as Kinko's) may have large >scanners. Even if they don't, they *do* have large, *color* copiers. >You might want to check what it'd cost to copy the maps. Carl Brodt's latest catalog lists the Northeastern Frontier maps and gazetteer as a future product. Brett Slocum | ICQ 13032903 | MiB #0666 (Twin Cities CL) ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //838 [Moderator's Note: Brett Slocum also notes the Assassin's weapons that we ] [ have discussed recently. He also adds the Shen pistol ] [ crossbow as an interesting possibility, too. ] >[Moderator's Note: Peter Huston offers commentary on the Language Question.] >Let me ask a question. Years ago I played in a game run by the professor's >friend when they came to a small con in Schenectady. I think we're talking >about 1978ish. There was a creature in the dungeon called "the worms of the >night" and some crystalline daggers that contained acid, poison, something >icky and could be stabbed into someone and then snapped off. How come worms >of the night aren't in the bestiary? These are described in Swords and Glory Vol. II under Assassin weapons. Worms of the Night are kept in clay 'coins'. The coins can be safely carried and then broken in an area where the victim will walk, or while sleeping. Pai'yi's Kiss is filled with acid, prussic, I believe. They are flung by staff-sling. There's also a pistol crossbow similar to the Shen weapon. Brett Slocum | ICQ 13032903 | MiB #0666 (Twin Cities CL) ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //839 [Moderator's Note: Robert Goldman asks about Mrelu and the Tsolyani ] [ Calendar. ] I have just begun to play in James Maliszewski's play by web Tekumel campaign. Most of the group are members of the temples of Thumis or Ksarul. Being a scholarly fellow myself, I thought it would be interesting to play the role of a priest of Gruganu, from Mrelu, Kagesh hi Tukkolen of the Cloak of Azure Gems clan. I have been reading a lot about Tekumel, through the books, this list, etc. but it's still been a humbling experience to try to draw up a Tsolyani life story! In particular, I realize that I know next to nothing about Kagesh's home city of Mrelu. Can anyone provide more info? All I have found so far is a short passage in the Swords & Glory volume I, stating that: "Eastward the bustling cities of the central plains --- Mrelu, Meku, Katalal, Urmish, Usenanu and others --- are devoted to the agricultural bounty of their regions --- and to the making of money. They are flat, neat, solid and a little pompous." [p. 34] One thing I'd love to hear about is the fact that Mrelu is devoted to Lord Ksarul and his cohort, Gruganu. I find that hard to square with the stolid, bourgeois feeling of the above description. How do these worthy burghers fit into the temple of Ksarul? From the description in Mitlanyal, with the masked priests and no one knowing who's really a powerful figure, the temple of Ksarul sounds like something out of Kafka (The Trial or The Castle, say), with the inaccessible, unknown and inscrutable bureaucrats controlling the fate of all. Can anyone describe the texture of life in Mrelu in this connection? Another question wrt the Tsolyani calendar --- has anyone made one of these up, on paper or better yet in electronic form? I'd love to have one to chart out the expedition Kagesh is about to be on --- and to make sure he doesn't miss any important Temple holidays! Thanks, Robert Goldman Kagesh hi Tukkolen ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //840 [Moderator's Note: Joe Saul comments on the sacrificing of animals. ] >I have a question. It is my understanding that human sacrifice is most >common among peoples without large, valuable draft animals. (The thought >being that people with large animals will sacrifice them instead of their >neighbors, if they feel the need to offer sacrifices to the God (s) .) On >Tekumel there are some strange wrinkles added. Although the Chlen beasts >are large, there are no riding beasts. (Can the Chlen pull a plow? I >forget. Is there another animal that can do this in its stead?) More Can you imagine the sheer amount of *effort* involved in sacrificing a Chlen? Something about the concept is sending me into hysterics... ;-) [Moderator's Note: Agreed! The experience would probably kill a couple of ] [ the folks performing the sacrifice, too. ] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.