These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000. A large portion of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain from sharing this data with non list members. When the list ended, it was urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it seemed like a good idea all around. I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site. Many Thanks. Chris Davis Moderator: Blue Room mailing list Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND BLUE ROOM ARCHIVE -- VOLUME 21 [20 December 1997 - 3 January 1998] 601: The Origins of Sakbe and Ditlana 602: Current Events in Tsolyanu 603: Miscellaneous Replies 604: Mitlanyal Update 605: More on Vulcan 606: Semaphores continued 607: Sakbe and Ditlana continued 608: Cataclysm and Season's Greetings 609: Shen Language 610: Chlen 611: More on Technology 612: More on Ditlana 613: Telepathy 614: FAQ and Website Update 615: Gods (from Usenet) 616: Sakbe and Ditlana Reply 617: Shen Language Reply 618: More on Ditlana 619: More on Sakbe and Ditlana 620: Chlen Reply 621: More on Ditlana Reply 622: Miscellaneous Questions 623: Pocket Dimensions 624: Scribes 625: Yan Koryani Script 626: Mayan Language 627: Legion of Kaikama 628: Administrivia 629: Mitlanyal News 630: More on Ditlana ******************************* //601 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to Matthew's question about ] [ the origins of Sakbe and Ditlana. ] [Further Note: Today, I finished up two major Server upgrades. This all ] [ started 2 weeks ago, and the first one went up last weekend,] [ the second I finished cutting over today. I just want you ] [ all to know how nutty it has been here. My wife has been ] [ out of town on an emergency business trip. We haven't done ] [ any holiday shopping, our boxes of Christmas cards stand un-] [ opened, and we still haven't bought presents for some of our] [ out of town family members. Those we have bought for, we ] [ haven't mailed yet. I guess that my Brother in Australia is] [ never gonna see his in time... :) In any case. I have a ] [ restful couple of days, followed by vacation from 12/24 to ] [ 1/2. I'll try to slug through the backlog of messages I ] [ have accumulated. Sorry for the long delay this time. I am] [ just exhausted, but I do find that handling the list is ] [ quite relaxing (when I manage to keep up). :) >[Moderator's Note: Matthew Pook on the possible origin of Sakbe and Ditlana.] >[ Any more info, Professor? ] >[ Joe Saul notes in message 579, that he meant "lower ] >[ classes" not "lower lasses" as appeared in the message. ] > >Last night (04/11/97) there was an interesting programme on TV that >[Moderator's Note: In the US, we do Month/Day/Year, where just about every- ] >[ one else does Day/Month/Year. As Matthew is from the UK,] >[ this means Nov 4, 1997. I am not that far behind! :) ] >explored the culture of the Maya (Central American culture at its height >from about 400AD to 800AD) in light the work done on translating their >heiroglyphs. > >The previous opinion of them had portrayed them as a scientifically >advanced, peaceful people. The translations disproved this, showing them >to be blood thirsty, constantly seeking to appease their gods with blood >sacrifice. The Maya did indeed have blood sacrifices, mostly to celebrate/commemorate the ends of time periods and astronomical events. Great celebrations were held in the major ritual sites, and captured important people were killed or tormented and then put away to await more fun and games next year. The Maya were not as urgent and lavish in their blood sacrifices as the later Aztecs, however. At its height, I have read that about 20,000 persons were sacrificed in Tenochtitlan every year. In my humble opinion, the most unpleasant sacrifice among the Maya was the drawing of blood by the Maya king from his own penis, using a piece of sharp shell. He dripped this blood onto strips of paper, which were then burned and thus "sent to the hods." His wife might run a cord sewn with thorns through her own tongue. This beats even "belly-piercing!" >One or two things struck me with regard to Tekumel. I may not be >entirely accurate as I was tired and not taking notes ... > >1. Firstly was the ideas behind the symbol for life and their symbol of >the cosmos. This was based upon their ideas of direction. Life came from >the East, West was the source of death and so on. In one aspect of this >symbol (which was cross shaped) was a road that ran from West to East, >from death to life, what they called the 'road of life' or 'Sakbe'. "Sakbe" is one Maya word that made it out to Tekumel and down through the millennia. The Maya built raised stone causeways through their realm(s), and somehow I picked up on this when I was no more than ten-twelve and reading Ann Axtell Morris' "Digging in Yucatan" for the first time. Why this word stuck is not clear. There are other Maya words and root-morphemes in Tsolyani and the other Tekumelani languages (some of which are on The Blue Room's website). >You can imagine the bells going off in my head. Is this the source of >the roads accross Tsolyanu? In name at least, if not format. Yes. You have found me out. >2. The programme also showed a royal palace/temple complex that had half >of it torn away (literally cut in half) by a river. This exposed to the >archaeologists how the top building had been built upon over another and >so and so on, right back to the original temple/tomb. (Amazingly the >actual founder of the city/culture and first of a dynasty was unearthed. >It turns out that he was from central Mexico and a foreigner and was >always portrayed with circular eye pieces - the source for the whole >'Charriots of the Gods' idea ...) This is the city of Copan in Honduras. It is a place of wonders. The idea of Ditlana may have come from this, although at the time when I first created Tekumel, there had been no work on many of the Maya cities, and Ernest Thompson was still telling people that the Maya were peace-loving stargazers, whose written language was not alphabetic and was wholly indecipherable, except for dates. Thompson's theories have now proved indefensible in many features, although he is still highly respected. >Is this building over of tombs and the like, the souce of Ditlana? Probably. I was also influenced by the Egyptians, mediaeval India, and elsewhere in the ancient world. >In light of these two questions, I wondered just how much this culture >influenced that of Tekumel? > Quite a bit. Remember that the peoples who survived the Great Cataclysm were Maya, Arabs, and a few other peoples, who dwelt where the eadioactive poison-bearing winds did not blow. Later, the Maya studied their ancestors' cultures and architecture, and copied various motifs and features. They revived their pre-Christian religion and eventually redevloped technology, at which time they met the Pe Choi, who asked, "What too you so long?" Regards, Phil ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //602 [Moderator's Note: Dateline, Usenanu... Bob Alberti (and the Professor) ] [ have provided some info about the various goings on in ] [ the Tsolyani Empire. I also spoke with the Professor ] [ and he gave me some more details I have added to the ] [ end of this post. ] > = Professor Barker's comments = Bob's comments >I hope that Bob Alberti will elaborate on his posting to the newsgroup. I >rarely look there myself, preferring the Blue Room. I would also prefer >that correspondents write or copy messages to both places, if the posting >has content for Tekumel fans. I never would have known that Bob had already >broken the story except for a correspondent who excitedly telephoned me. I >was rather hoping to break it myself on the Blue Room. My only mention was made on Friday the 12th (i.e. nine days ago, not yesterday). It read, in total, "Oh, by the way, Dhich'une is no longer Emperor." At that time, the Thursday night gaming party had just been dropped off on the Plane of the Buffalo, and I truly didn't know any more than that. For all I knew, he was going to head back and reclaim the throne, and I knew neither the date nor his successor. >It is true: With Vimuhla's finest warriors pouring up out of the cellars of >Avanthar, the Emperor decided to leave. With the aid of a sorceress, the >Lady Sarvodaya Di'ela, Oh ho! I didn't know THAT. I mean, I had guessed it was one of her ships, but I didn't know she was actively assisting him in any way. >he set off in one of her airships and transferred to >another Plane, then on to still other Planes. I comfort my self with the delusion that I at least inconvenienced him for a few minutes... >He thus lives, (after a fashion...) >together with >some of his retainers, but the Imperium is no longer his. The Empire is now >in a state of elation and wild flux. The capital is in the hands of >Mirusiya and Taksuru. The latter has already announced that he will >probably resign the Gold and work as Mirusiya's righthand man. Rereshqala >has also stated that he wants only the prosperity of the Empire, and he is >too old and sedentary to do much more. The saddest thing was the death of >Prince Eselne -- lowly dysentary brought him down. Princess Ma'in is still >in Tumissa, where she holds court and wishes she were younger and more in >demand. There will be a Kolumejalim, of course, and there may be some >surprises. Here is what little I can add to that. First off, Chris, make sure if the Professor wants to break something more formal than this redirected-private- message that he has a chance to do so: I don't want to upstage him! [Moderator's Note: Nope. This was fine by him. ] Our hapless group of low-circle adventurers travelled under the loving guidance of experienced rapscallion Captain Harchar and his trusty sidekick Swordswinger (his partner Staffswinger having met an unkind fate some months before). We were cruising the oceans of the far side of Tekumel in a ship of the Ancients, given into our bumbling care by some annoyed Wizards from the College at the End of Time and certain Guardians of Ancient Places who had wished too hasten our departure from their domain. One of our party, a Sarku-worshippping crossbowman named Shemesh, had unbeknownst to the rest of us been granted certain favors and charges by highly-placed representatives of his Worm Lord on this side of the globe. So when we sailed into an amazing harbor, accessable only via a large tunnel carved through a moutain's roots, Shemesh was in position to serve his waiting masters. He disembarked and returned later with the tallest Chima we had ever seen, explaining that this worthy knew how to operate our Ship of the Ancients. No sooner had the Chima touched the controls than the Ship vaulted into the heavens, and for a day we roared along in air too thin to breathe. When we descended the Chima was gone, and a hirstute human was commanding the helm. We descended by night, and were surprised to see a tall tower loom out of the darkness. Peering over the side, we could see nothing below the ship but darkness. A gangway was extended from an opening just beneath the corbelled roof of this tower, and a party of soldiers quickly secured the main deck. Our surprise at these activities was increased when their torches lit the darkness sufficiently to reveal the gleam of blue and gold armor, and we heard our native Tsolyani being spoken for the first time in months. We were somewhere in Tsolyanu! Then further persons boarded, some wearing purple robes which were not those of the Temple of Hru'u, others gesticulating orders mutely. Still, I did not catch on, because I am thick. Finally a young man boarded, accompanied by several elder gentlemen with the air of wizardry about them. Finally it dawned on me (it was already noon for the rest of the party of course) who these people were! They were the Emperor Himself, Dhich'une Tlakotani, as well as the wizards Vridekka, and our sometime-Chima pilot Jayargo. Certain things happened very quickly thereafter. First we heard shouts and cries from below, where now we could see distantly the torches of troops battling at what must be the base of the Golden Tower of Avanthar. We were at first ignored by the guards, and one of our party managed to sneak into the engine room with an Eye of Disjection and fired it into the engines. When he woke up to find himself capable of still moving, the Vimuhla worshipper picked up the Eye, crawled over to the gaping wound in the side of the engine, stuck his arm inside, and fired it again. Quick heal spells preserved Achumel's life, but we were locked in a cabin as proof against further mischief while Lord Jayargo initiated repairs to the engine. He was successful, and we did not smash into the ground. Unfortunately, the guards then decided that they wanted some fun, and the two women in the party were directed by Shemesh into the galley and there abused. One woman sneaked away through the kitchen into the hold with the aid of the brave Chef of Avanthe. There she dug through the miscellaneous cargo until she found a device which, when she activated it, produced a grid of blue lines and incidentally shifted the ship over to the Plane of the Buffalo. The Plane of the Buffalo is a "nearby" plane to that of Tekumel (while it may be "distant" in Inter-planar terms, it is a frequent first stop in interplanar travel). It is a dominion of the Silver Suits, servitors of the Pariah Deities so-called for their full-body silver armor. It is comprised mainly of broad savannahs of golden grass traversed by mighty "buffalo" (no real relation) about the size of a small Chlen. These herds can stretch from horizon to horizon and are inexorable in their stampedes. Annoyed with us, the former Emperor ordered us put off about five Tsan ahead of one such herd, and the ship departed. We were, as the saying goes, screwed. The depths of our screwedness can be illustrated by the cheerful fact that at least it didn't matter that neither of the sorcerors in the party had the Visitations of Other Planes spell necessary to escape this plane, because spellcasting doesn't work there. The party spent a nasty night dodging through a miles-wide herd of elephantine buffalo in the darkness of a driving rainstorm. The next day, as the straggling buffalo passed, another airship arrived and we boarded. It turned out that this was a nature-study tour from the domain of the Silver Suits, out to observe the herd. I'll skip much of what occured here except to say that they were much more polite than a lot of Tsolyani I've met, and after an exchange of sexual favors with the Captain of this vessel, he agreed to detour long enough to drop us off at home. We arrived in Bey Su in the modern era, apparently only a couple of days after we left. This being interplanar travel, we could have arrived during the reign of the Fishermen Kings, so we were all quite happy. We learned that the Emperor had been deposed on the 18th of Dohala, 2368, by the allied forces of Prince Mirusiya and Prince Taksuru. Prince Eselne had apparently perished of a wasting illness during the summer of 2368, having never quite recovered from wounds suffered earlier in the civil strife. The popular mood was good, except in and around the temples and clanhouses of those faithful to the deposed Emperor, some of which had been destroyed by vengeful mobs. The taking of the Golden Tower was an unbelievable achievement, unparalleled in Tsolyani history. Legendary general Karin Missum had been carried off the field, gravely wounded, and his condition remained unknown. It is generally expected that Prince Mirusiya has or will soon declare himself regent until such time as a Kolumejalim can be held. He seems to have arranged with his siblings that he shall be the only candidate, both Taksuru and Rereshqala pledging to renounce the Gold and work with the new Emperor. Princesses Ma'in and Aremala could not hope to prevail over Mirusiya, and of poor Prince Surundano nothing has been heard (although several have suggested that the Imperial Heirs should pitch in and send him a nice fruit basket.) Prince Mridobu remains missing and assumed dead. Eselne's former general Kettukal has retreated to Paya Gupa with his troops, and is not expected to perpetuate the civil strife without an Imperial sponsor. The last holdouts of Prince Dhich'une's troops were defeated in Thri'il only recently. The date is now 29 Dohala 2368, and all of Usenanu is preparing for a particularly festive Intercalary Day celebration. The only lingering doubts remain in the minds of our party, who are the only ones on Tekumel (aside, one assumes, Mirusiya himself) who know that Prince Dhich'une remains alive (or whatever) and active, guarded and supported by the dread allies who helped him seize the throne. ---------------- Some more news from conversations I have had with Phil over the last day or so. These are my impressions. Don't attribute them to anyone else. :) Karin Missum has been moved down to Bey Su, and is under the care of the Healing Sorcerors there. No word yet on his condition. Mirusiya is coldly grim about his victory. He desperately wants Dhich'une's head. The awful part of this is that when there is a Kolumejalim, and if someone hasn't killed Dhich'une, he would be able to participate. According to Tsolyani law, an heir cannot be kept from his right to participate. But, if this law was so strictly kept, how did Dhich'une keep all the others from getting their fair chance Professor? The princesses Main and Aremalla are pretty much out of the picture as Bob stated. Surundano is well, Surundano. :) Rereshqala will probably be the Hig Provost of the Chancery at Avanthar, (the job held by Chaimira hiSsanmirin during Hirkane's rule. Taksuru will probably be given a special position, some type of Legate to the Priesthoods. Primarily to keep an Imperial eye closely on them. Poor Eselne did pass to the Paradises via a bout of dysentary. I asked about Mridobu, and the answers I got led me to the the following possible conclusions about Mridobu. 1. He's dead. 2. He's a Mrur or Shedra somewhere. 3. He's been Mind Barred, or effectively lobotomized. Phil led me to believe that he would be ineffective as a politician if, in fact, he was indeed alive. ----- //603 [Moderator's Note: The Professor comments on James Snead's message about ] [ technology. He also comments on Tom Robertson's ] [ message on the Cataclysm. And finally, in time for ] [ the Holidays, Bob Alberti provides a link to his web ] [ site for the Holiday Classic, A Chitlasha Carol. ] >[Moderator's Note: More technology on Tekumel from James Snead. ] > >Another remark on technology and Tekumel; one element which should be >emphasized here is the role of "prestige" in the adoption of technological >items. It has been demonstrated that chlen hide weapons are effective and >cheap, while bronze is heavy and expensive; the desirability of bronze for >certain parties seems to be more closely associated with the status of the >weapons, perhaps since those in circulation are often of some antiquity. >In a conservative tradition, such equipment would display a >tangible association with noble traditions of the past, thereby increasing >the status of its owner. Bronze isn't "better", technologically speaking, >but the prestige conferred by wielding an Engsvanyali sword would be >coveted by those who could afford it. Absolutely correct. Learning the traditions of "noble behaviour" makes up a large portion of a Tekumelani child's upbringing. A printing press might be more efficient, but this would spoil the calligraphers' productions and lead to degeneration (it is thought). In India and Pakistan, to this very day, most magazines, books and even newspapers are hand-calligraphed by rooms full of scribes squatting with writing boards on their knees. Not only does this produce some badly calligraphed texts, but the scribes tend to die off quickly from ailments connected with crouching with the knees drawn up for long periods while writing. Yet, ask anyone if a change is wanted. Chances are the answer will be that type spoils the look of the script. Some older people have difficulty reading a book printed in type, too. In iran, most headlines seem to be calligraphed, while the articles themselves are in type. >There are numerous examples of this behavior in human prehistory. Native >American cultures in contact with euro-americans in the 18th and 19th >centuries often designed clubs which looked like gun stocks; guns >themselves were prestigous, and if you didn't have one, you might as well >fight with something that looked like one. Swords buried in bronze-age >barrows in northern Europe were much harder to obtain than spears, and by >placing them with the deceased owner were thus removed from use; the >prestige they conferred was more valuable than their efficiency, since >otherwise the leader might have passed it on to his descendants. Bronze is indeed slightly more prestigious. Soft iron is still more "noble," but it is steel (a metal found largely in the ruins of the Great Ancients) that really brings out the oohs and aahs. A steel sword is a gift that anybody will value -- try using such a blade as a bribe sometime, and watch how fast your desires come true! >Value is thus a culturally-relative term. While efficiency is central >to the euro-american ideal of progress, prestige is often of greater >importance in non-european traditions, which the status-conscious >societies of Tekumel more closely resemble. > >James Snead Exactly, James. You have said pretty much what I would say on this, Regards, Phil ----- Very interesting. Nobody really knows where any of the "lost planets" are -- or how to get to them. Occasionally there is an accident, but otherwise the "Skin of Reality" in our continuum remains too thick and impenetrable for us todraw power from the Planes Beyond, much less open Nexus Points. >My research has found a document that may pertain to the current discussion >on the Cataclysm. The document is in some strange unknown language with an >attached summary in Ancient Tysolani quoted below: [Moderator's Note: The rest was deleted as it was the contents of Message ] [ 580 in full. ] Good stuff, Tom. I enjoyed this. [Moderators Note: It was pointed out to me by another reader that the scale ] [ mentioned by Tom would mean that there were millions (if ] [ not more) planets in pocket universes. I would have to ] [ defer to the Professor on the number of planets that dis- ] [ appeared during the Cataclysm. I would think that this ] [ would be more appropriate confined to a region of space ] [ rather than the whole galaxy. A humble opinion. ] Regards, Phil -- The seasonal children's favorite "A Chitlasha Carol" returns for a limited engagement at http://freenet.msp.mn.us/~alberti/chitlasha.html Tickets are free, so stop by today!. ----- //604 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti gives us a Mitlanyal update and Paul Roser ] [ offers his opinion on the work (so do I). ] Two expirations are coming up for Mitlanyal! First, TOME has until the end of this month to let me know whether or not they are interested in publishing it. If I don't hear from them by the 6th of January I will send them a letter. Second, I'm rapidly running out of copies of my pre-publication run of Mitlanyal. If you're interested in a copy of the pre-publication run be sure to order it soon. It's unlikely that a subsequent run will be as inexpensive: I shopped hard for a printer to make this copy affordable and was not pleased with the final quality (one buyer lacked the final two chapters, another was missing a page in Dra, and I found one copy lacking a front cover) I'd probably have to shell out more for any subsequent run, were I to produce one. Again, if you're interested in ordering Mitlanyal, write to Bob Alberti 2732 40th Ave. S. Mpls, MN 55406 Each copy is 210 comb-bound 8 1/2X11 pages with no art and 80# paper covers. -- Paul Roser writes. Just wanted to drop a quick note to the list about Bob Alberti's "Mitlanyal". I'm still working through it, but I, for one, definitely feel it was worth the wait! There's an awful lot of info here, some of which I was surprised to learn (for instance, that Lady Avanthe has a masculine aspect). I want to publicly thank Bob for the work he has put in to bring this to us, and hope everyone out there will join me in wishing him success in getting it published (I really want to see the final product - it's great without the pictures & maps, but should be awesome with them!) When I've finshed digesting all this info, I'm sure I'll have some more questions/ideas to share with the list. Regards, Paul R. -- I agree with everything Paul says. Mitlanyal is a tremendous resource for Tekumel players. One of the most interesting parts for me was the small mini-novels to illustrate some points. The most chilling and interesting of those little stories was the one about the priest of Hru'u. WOW! There was just so little known to me about this temple. The same could have been said about numerous others. Bob's book goes a long way to fix this. Chris ----- //605 [Moderator's Note: Joe Saul and the Professor write about the Vulcan issue. ] Joe Saul writes... > No, it's nothing that lengthy-- nor that specific. It's only six, >maybe eight characters, and after close examination with EPT rules in hand, >I'm starting to think that they're a Hyksos 'cartouche'-- a meaningless >scrawl that LOOKS extremely authentic, at any rate... Anybody with a frame grabber want to pull this off a video and make it available to the masses? (Yes, it would be legal to capture a still.) Joe -- The Professor writes.. >[Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff continues about the Star Trek Vulcan temple, ] >[ and asks the Professor his opinions on the look and feel ] >[ of the Vulcan temple. ] > >"Anybody write them down? I'm just curious. Maybe the designer tried to make >a joke in English using Tsolyani characters?" I have seen the moview, but I did not write the characters down -- didn't even notice them until someone here mentioned them. I suspect they may have been just Vulcan script, as devised by the moviemakers. Perhaps there was a little impetus from Tekumel, perhaps not. > No, it's nothing that lengthy-- nor that specific. It's only six, >maybe eight characters, and after close examination with EPT rules in hand, >I'm starting to think that they're a Hyksos 'cartouche'-- a meaningless >scrawl that LOOKS extremely authentic, at any rate... This seems right. > In short, I've yet to make an exact match, but even the most casual >inspection would ring a bell instantly-- as indeed it did. (Artistic >license, undoubtedly. The script's appearance is part of the 'Tekumel >look,' so the designer hummed a bar and faked the rest.) > But you DID see the movie? I'd have liked to have heard your first >impressions of that concluding 'Vulcan Temple' scene. From the first >establishing shot onwards was like the 'Swords and Glory' cover art >recreated. I was utterly astounded. I wish I had a better memory for movies. Some of my players can quote plots, characters, etc. etc. just like a Hindu Pandit can quote the Mahabharata. I even knew one fellow who could quote at will from anywhere in "Monte Python and the Holy Grail," including the songs and all the various parts! Me, I have to look inside my coat at the label to see what my name is -- usually it is "Sears." > Finding an 'artist's conception' of Tsolyani script included in the >package was just icing on the cake. > >--G. > >"I wrote away at once to the figure manufacturer -- and soon received a >reply in *Tsolyani*! You can imagine the stunned shock...! It turned out >that the figure-designer had a longstanding love for Tekumel." > Yes...? Imagine HIS shock, at first receiving your letter! > -- I can certainly imagine it, recalling my astounded delight here, >the first time that you, The Man Himself, replied to a comment that I had >made. Me. After twenty-two years, actual -response-, interaction-- had my >Tactical Studies Rules book from 1975 abruptly spoken out loud I could have >been no more floored. > (One advantage to this newsgroup: After all of that time, I finally >know why the cover art on those 1975 EPT rules is signed 'P.B.' I'd have >certainly never guessed 'Phil'...) All my father's fault, really. He named me Phillip (Greek for "Lover of Horses," although I have never made love to a horse in my life!). I never had a middle name. In 1952 I joined the Islamic faith while in India, and I have never looked back. There's no need to debate my (or anybody else's) theology here, but many are curious as to why the "M. A. R." (for "Muhammad Abd-al-Rahman") and why the "Phil." Hope this helps. Regards, Phil ----- //606 [Moderator's Note: Semaphores seems to be the topic of the month... Here is ] [ an accumulation of numerous responses. ] Edward Franks writes... On Saturday, November 29, 1997 8:51 AM, The Blue Room Mailing List [SMTP:blueroom@prin.edu] wrote: >> It's the concept of 'cumulative error.' Despite all >> safeguards, >>'best guesses' at ambiguity will snowball-- any message sent by >>semaphore >>telegraph will eventually deteriorate beyond comprehension. Simple >>code >>groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly >>massive >>information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of >>the >>message may depend on which it was... > >Mm. Historically, how bad a problem was this? My guess is not >terribly so -- >that people who use this system take the bandwidth hit and transmit >relatively >simple messages with a lot of effort rather than risking >misinterpretation. Well, you _could_ have each part of the relay repeat the message back as a type of 'autocheck'. That is, Relay 7 sends the coded message on to Relay 8, which then sends it back to Relay 7 to verify it was received properly.. Once Relay 7 gets the 'All Correct, Send It On' signal they do just that. Also, the code groups could be sent in small chunks of five, with verification done at the end of each chunk of five. Cumbersome? Yes, but it is still faster than a man on foot, especially if you use the semaphores for specific types of messages, that is, "Send Legion x up the river." instead of trying to use the semaphores like a telegraph or telephone. -- Dwight Grosso writes... All this discussion over semaphores being viable or not jogged an idea in my head. All the pros and cons concerning semaphors, the fact that couriers can be ambushed, and the telepathic network in the priesthoods aside, why couldn't secret messages be magically implanted and carried? I imagine that some of these probably are, especially amongst the various secret societies, OAL, and some mages. It seems that a message could be "installed" in some knowing or unknowing agent. The system would probably be similar in nature to what the white instruction globe did to Harsan in Man of Gold. In this way it acts as a concealed message in an object, such as hollowed out staff or something, except it can't reveal itself. That is to say, it won't, and can't reveal itself until it is ready to because of a preset condition or counter spell. Furthermore it wouldn't show up as anything other than an aura, or whatever to the trained observer. "Oh sure Omel, he's got some kind of spell on him, but what is it?" The only people of "cracking" such a hidden message would be those priests who deal with such magic, or a mage who delved into similar studies. While we're on the subject, why not use corpses as delivery agents? I'm sure the temples of Sarku do something like that... except they're not telling anyone about it. I don't think anyone would stop a corpse that was being delivered to a clan house far away, as long as there weren't obvious signs of plague or something. Just some morbid thoughts on the question at hand. Sincerely, Dwight Grosso -- Leonard Erickson writes... >>ps. speaking of codes, I assume that the list is aware of the fact that >>Tsolyani has a "code page" in the "official unofficial" Unicode >>registry? I can dig up the URL and post the code assignments if anyone >>is interested. > > I'm interested. Please send it to me, either via the list or to > aliasan@mindspring.com. I can't find the URL, so I'll have to do some more digging, but here's the file: ENGSVANYáLI: U+E100 - U+E14F Proposal 1996-05-20; revision 1997-02-16 This script was invented by M. A. R. Barker as a playing aid for the Empire of the Petal Throne series of games, along with the Tsolyáni language. Further details can be found in The Tsolyáni Language, parts 1 and 2, published by Adventure Games Inc., 871 Edgerton Street, Saint Paul, Minnesota 55101-4119 USA (+1 612 776-6089). A rather rough font can be found at http://www.io.com/pub/tekumel/tsolyani.zip. The Engsvanyáli script was used for writing the ancient Engsvanyáli language, and has been extended for representing a number of modern languages, most notably Tsolyáni, where it replaced the "monumental" form of the Bednálljan syllabary in the reign of the forty-fifth Seal Emperor. The Engsvanyáli script is cursive, even in its printed form. Like the Arabic script, in the calligraphic tradition, the same letter may be written in different forms depending on how it joins with its neighbours. Word-medial and word-final vowels are written as diacritics above or below the consonant which they follow in speech; word-initial vowels, which are written as letters, never join with their neighbours. The script is written from right to left excepting numbers, which are written from left to right. Encoding Principles The alphabet of the Tsolyáni language is well-defined. Each letter in encoded only once, regardless of the different presentation forms it can assume. Independent vowels are encoded as letters; the combining vowel signs are separately encoded, in the way that Brahmic scripts are encoded. The Non-joiner and the Joiner The Unicode standard provides two user-selectable zero-width formatting codes: U+200C ZERO WIDTH NON-JOINER and U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER. The use of a non-joiner between two letters prevents them from attaching to each other when rendered. Each letter assumes the correct form, while the context analysis algorithm stays perfectly regular. Engsvanyáli Vowels Vowels in the Engsvanyáli script appear as independent letters only if they begin a word; otherwise, they are rendered as diacritics applied to the preceding consonant. The occurrence of a non-initial Engsvanyáli vowel constitutes an assertion that the character is intended to be applied via some process to the consonantal character that precedes it in the text stream, the base character. The Unicode standard does not specify a sequence order in case of multiple marks applied to the same Engsvanyáli base character, since there is no possible ambiguity of interpretation. (Deterministic sorting could be affected, but not other operations.) Encoding Structure The Engsvanyáli block is divided into the following ranges: U+E100 -> U+E128 Engsvanyáli letters U+E129 -> U+E12E Engsvanyáli punctuation U+E12F Engsvanyáli non-spacing consonant doubler U+E130 -> U+E138 Engsvanyáli vowel signs U+E139 -> U+E13E Currently unassigned U+E13F Engsvanyáli supplementary letter U+E140 -> U+E14E Engsvanyáli digits and numbers U+E14F Currently unassigned _________________________________________________________________ U+E100 ENGSVANYALI LETTER P U+E101 ENGSVANYALI LETTER B U+E102 ENGSVANYALI LETTER M U+E103 ENGSVANYALI LETTER F U+E104 ENGSVANYALI LETTER V U+E105 ENGSVANYALI LETTER W U+E106 ENGSVANYALI LETTER T U+E107 ENGSVANYALI LETTER D U+E108 ENGSVANYALI LETTER N U+E109 ENGSVANYALI LETTER TH U+E10A ENGSVANYALI LETTER DH U+E10B ENGSVANYALI LETTER CH U+E10C ENGSVANYALI LETTER J U+E10D ENGSVANYALI LETTER Y U+E10E ENGSVANYALI LETTER K U+E10F ENGSVANYALI LETTER G U+E110 ENGSVANYALI LETTER KH U+E111 ENGSVANYALI LETTER GH U+E112 ENGSVANYALI LETTER Q U+E113 ENGSVANYALI LETTER H U+E114 ENGSVANYALI LETTER NG U+E115 ENGSVANYALI LETTER GLOTTAL STOP U+E116 ENGSVANYALI LETTER TS U+E117 ENGSVANYALI LETTER TL U+E118 ENGSVANYALI LETTER S U+E119 ENGSVANYALI LETTER SH U+E11A ENGSVANYALI LETTER Z U+E11B ENGSVANYALI LETTER ZH U+E11C ENGSVANYALI LETTER SS U+E11D ENGSVANYALI LETTER R U+E11E ENGSVANYALI LETTER L U+E11F ENGSVANYALI LETTER HL U+E120 ENGSVANYALI LETTER I U+E121 ENGSVANYALI LETTER A U+E122 ENGSVANYALI LETTER O U+E123 ENGSVANYALI LETTER U U+E124 ENGSVANYALI LETTER UE U+E125 ENGSVANYALI LETTER E U+E126 ENGSVANYALI LETTER AU U+E127 ENGSVANYALI LETTER AI U+E128 ENGSVANYALI LETTER OI U+E129 ENGSVANYALI QUOTATION MARK U+E12A ENGSVANYALI COMMA U+E12B ENGSVANYALI FULL STOP U+E12C ENGSVANYALI QUESTION MARK U+E12D ENGSVANYALI FRACTION SLASH U+E12E ENGSVANYALI CONSONANT DOUBLER U+E12F (This position shall not be used) U+E130 ENGSVANYALI VOWEL SIGN I U+E131 ENGSVANYALI VOWEL SIGN A U+E132 ENGSVANYALI VOWEL SIGN O U+E133 ENGSVANYALI VOWEL SIGN U U+E134 ENGSVANYALI VOWEL SIGN Y U+E135 ENGSVANYALI VOWEL SIGN E U+E136 ENGSVANYALI VOWEL SIGN AU U+E137 ENGSVANYALI VOWEL SIGN AI U+E138 ENGSVANYALI VOWEL SIGN OI U+E139 (This position shall not be used) U+E13A (This position shall not be used) U+E13B (This position shall not be used) U+E13C (This position shall not be used) U+E13D (This position shall not be used) U+E13E (This position shall not be used) U+E13F ENGSVANYALI LETTER LL U+E140 ENGSVANYALI DIGIT ZERO U+E141 ENGSVANYALI DIGIT ONE U+E142 ENGSVANYALI DIGIT TWO U+E143 ENGSVANYALI DIGIT THREE U+E144 ENGSVANYALI DIGIT FOUR U+E145 ENGSVANYALI DIGIT FIVE U+E146 ENGSVANYALI DIGIT SIX U+E147 ENGSVANYALI DIGIT SEVEN U+E148 ENGSVANYALI DIGIT EIGHT U+E149 ENGSVANYALI DIGIT NINE U+E14A ENGSVANYALI NUMBER TEN U+E14B ENGSVANYALI NUMBER ONE HUNDRED U+E14C ENGSVANYALI NUMBER ONE THOUSAND U+E14D ENGSVANYALI NUMBER TEN THOUSAND U+E14E ENGSVANYALI NUMBER ONE MILLION U+E14F (This position shall not be used) [INLINE] _________________________________________________________________ Pictures of Engsvanyáli characters from The Tsolyáni Language: * Page 126 * Page 127 * Page 128 _________________________________________________________________ Based on a proposal by Christian Carey (ccarey@CapAccess.org) _________________________________________________________________ Return to the ConScript Unicode Registry. _________________________________________________________________ Further information about the CSUR is available from: John Cowan, cowan@ccil.org or Michael Everson, everson@indigo.ie Updated 1997-02-16 -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort -- Chaz Tompkins writes... It is *very* hard to stand outside of your own culture to see some of the more important differences between human societies. As a professional archaeologist/anthropologist I have to constantly remind myself of this. When excavating a 2000 year old pithouse alongside a dry river bed in Southern Arizona, I am forced to construct (imagine?) the connections between the remains in my hands and some sort of coherent human activity. "Hmmm, a circular pattern of fine, cryptocrystaline blades just outside the northern edge of the structure....ritual pattern marking a water source for the family unit?" Then I look at the ethnographic literature: someone was chipping stone with a lap blanket in the shade on a summer day. Shook it off and ... Or, to the contrary of our western utilitarian bias: Evidence from cave sites in Tasmania (Aust.) that late Pleistocene and early Holocene populations enjoyed the abundant marine foods of the region.....and ethnographic evidence that at contact all such foods were taboo even under severe hardship. Moreover, the aborigines there had lost even the rudimentary seafaring skills that got them to the continent from SE Asia *40,000* years before. The Gestalt is hard to adequately express, but it is for me the most intriging aspects of the Professor's glass: there are many ways to be human and it doesn't just boil down to cracking your eggs on the big or little end. Both Darwinism (social and otherise) and Progress are a western social construct. They are no more "Real" and immutable than the "Great Chain of Being" of the Middle Ages. As a bit of sugar for one's industrial-progressive engine consider that humans--with a physical and mental birthright **indistiguishable** from your own--have been successfully habitating this planet for over 100,000 years. But, with all our prowess of metal and might, how different are we from Mayan kings who demonstrated the calendrical ascendancy of Jaguar over Eagle? -- Peter Timko writes... I cannot believe that I actually am getting involved in this semaphore discussion, but two things in Phil's message (#600) I can respond to quickly without wasting anyone's time -- now, now, be kind. :) First, in answer to the question of Roman legionary communication: to the best of my knowledge the Romans didn't develop a semaphore system per se, but by at least the early Imperial era there was a set of 10-12 commands (with a few additions made according to terrain and the ingenuity of specific generals or tribunes) relayed to forces in battle by the buccinators. Indeed, this type of quick communication was among the things that helped the legions so much against the man-for-man more powerful Gauls. Second, Phil, your contention about the difficulty of determining which form of a letter to use in a semaphore system actully doesn't seem to be much of a problem, if my knowledge of Arabic is any guide to Tsolyani. The page headers in my trusty old Hans-Wehr dictionary just put the basic single form of the letter for the root beginning and ending each page. [MEGO THIS AT WILL] The form of the letter `ayn in the respective roots Taw(back)-`Ayn-Ba, Jim-Mim-`Ayn and `Ayn-Shin- Ra appears the same in the header even though it would be written differently in each of the three words. As with Arabic newspapers today, few include the diacritical marks of vowels unless to indicate the proper pronuciation of a foreign name -- are there not lazy Tsolyani scribes who get away with scimping on diacritical vowels yet whose messages are still understood? Certainly I can read the occasional correspondence I get in Arabic which lacks diacritical vowelings. In essence, the problem would seem to be more akin to that encountered by morse code; i.e., whoever reads the message has to figure out where one word stops and another begins, and so which form of the letter to write in transcription. While this is easier with written vowels, lack of them shouldn't be insurmountable. Of course, this says nothing to the cultural ideals many have already brought up. I see no reason why the Tsolyanu or any other of the five empires would invent a sempahore system. I just see fewer reasons why they could not. Respectfully, Peter (Sakhr) Timko -- Gordon Neff writes... >Simple code >groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly massive >information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of the >message may depend on which it was... >Mm. Historically, how bad a problem was this? My guess is not terribly so >that people who use this system take the bandwidth hit and transmit >relatively >simple messages with a lot of effort rather than risking misinterpretation. 'Not terribly so'? Actually, that very same, specific example put Frederick the Great on the throne. '116' was Father Wolfe, a Jesuit, who wrote to the Pope about how impressed he was by the candor and piety of this young German prince... who had meant his long, detailed letter to go to '110.' Great oaks, and little acorns... And in regards to Mr Leonard Erickson's admirable comments: >Actually, you don't get *nearly* as much distortion, as with the party >game because the message is sent one letter at a time. So while this >could result in a word being mispelled between two stations, the >structure of just about any language will result in the error being >obvious in most cases. Picky, picky-- you got my point, hai? >"Would anybody be interested in a Tsolyani semaphore code? I could >probably draw one up once I dig up my copy of the alphabet. >If you give me a letter frequency table for Tsolyani (ie a list of >letters from most common to least common in 'normal' text) I could do >up a 'morse code' also." Yah, YOU could. The question is, would THEY? The very idea of basing the complexity of your code formation on the -frequency- of the alphabet, rather than its arbitrary position, was a matter of silent awe when ol' Samuel trotted it out. No one had ever THOUGHT of that, before-- they were perfectly willing to bash out twenty-five dots for the letter 'Y.' >BTW, I figured out the big disadvantage of semaphores and heliographs. >Regardless of how hard you try to keep it secret, some people *will* >know the code, even if they have to figure it out by recording the >"code sequences" and then trying to compare them to likely message >texts. So you have to accept the idea that at least some of your messages >will >be known. You *can* encrypt them, but that makes sending and receiving >them harder (you can't rely on the operators being able to >automatically correct simple errors from context (eg "Sakbe rofd" to >"Sakbe road") Welcome to Napoleonic Diplomacy 101! Allow me to introduce you to the DeVigenere cipher, which remained unbroken for centuries due to the extreme genius of its inventor. Also Rossignol, who lent his name to the French name for 'skeleton key.' You have, of your own intelligence, stumbled upon the Great Mother Lode of cryptography, which drove and fueled international espionage until the development of ORBITAL SATELLITES. No lie. Congratulations. (Let me tell you someday about the tens of thousands of dollars -still- owed, as far as I know, to AT&T by the Federal Government, because they had to use a 1798 diplomatic code in a 1917 trans-Atlantic telegram... It was something like 1,100 four-number code groups. Every other official cipher in use at the time had been compromised-- this was all they had left.) P.S. What the hell is an "'official unofficial' Unicode registry"? -- Gordon further writes... With no disrespect intended to any individuals, it's remarkable how many people take examples or analogies for ACTUAL SITUATIONS. While it is truly interesting to hear about the incidences of eidetic recall among people without mechanical printing, using their ability to demonstrate the absurdity of my ANALOGY is foolish. 'The concept of cumulative error' was what I was illustrating, in a way I considered understandable and simple. -Obviously- a circle of trained jongleurs wouldn't lose a scrap of it, nor a hundred times over-- but that wasn't my point... (Nor was the way in which physical gunpowder itself might be used-- but there again, the resulting discussion was of interest in itself.) Thomas Worthington sez that circled-message party game is called 'Chinese Whispers.' Really? I've never heard it named at all. Thanks. To Mr Worthington's other comment, though, I am perforce less charitable... >cultures Samuel Morse never -heard- of. The flash of such titanic >heliographs could be seen as far away as the horizon permitted. | Indeed:- friend or foe for miles around could see your messages. Not | the sort of secretive communication the five empires like. May I infer from this that you've never actually tried -using- a signal mirror? A mirror, sir, reflects light from one direction to another, single direction. (Assuming it's flat.) You could no more see such flashes, were they not -aimed- at you, than you can employ your rear-view mirror, where it is customarily installed, to inspect the rear bumper of your car. (Of course, if you break it off, you may then hold it wherever you like, in the manner of a dental mirror.) If further illustration is needed, I will add that standard military 'survival/signaling mirrors' have a HOLE in them, to facilitate AIMING at one's rescuers... I don't mean to be unkind, though it may sound so; this obviously just didn't occur to you. What DID, however, was the concept of heat haze as an obscuring factor, and I applaud; that extremely plausible difficulty did not occur to me at all. The only solution I can see is a shorter interval between towers-- or such whopping huge flags, as tall as the tower itself perhaps, of such violently contrasting colors that even through heat-shimmer you can see which end is up, as it were. I think the former is a more probable solution. While on the subject: No, Professor, to the best of my knowledge the Romans never used a systematic... er, system, of heliographs. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the first major use of signal mirrors for military purposes involved 'trade mirrors,' as used by the Plains and Western Indians during the Indian Wars. (That does seem unlikely... until you consider the techniques of mass production required to simply -obtain- that many mirrors to begin with. It might not have been possible before then.) On the other hand, Tekumelani cultures are old enough that ANYthing is going to be tried and worked out if it CAN be, eventually. I dunno-- it's rather like your comment about the Romans inventing the bicycle. Somehow, I can -see- these massive, towering signaling platforms existing here. As I said, it fits the... flavor of the culture, in some almost indefinable way. As to Mr Simpson's Inca and his fresh, courier-delivered fish: a) that was, after all, a rather narrow country; 'the coast' was never all THAT far away (relatively speaking), and b) define 'fresh.' His definition may vary from yours. As to their being delivered from 'some hundreds of miles away earlier that same day'... I'll have to get you to excuse me on -that- one. I have a delicacy about pursuing the matter any further. Gordon. ----- //607 [Moderator's Note: More discussion on the origins of Sakbe and Ditlana. ] John Smith writes... >>Is this building over of tombs and the like, the souce of Ditlana? > >Possibly, but I don't think so. As I recall, the practice of building >new cities atop old ones is not singular to the Central or South >American civilizations; several such sites have been found throughout >the Middle East and Asia Minor. The most famous example of such a >city is probably that of Troy, a series of nine cities (at least) >built one atop the next. > >In my opinion, there is no reason why building repeatedly on the >same site should be a function of a particular culture. There are >usually good reasons to stay in the same place, often involving >advantageous location (ease of defense/transportation, proximity to >water sources, ease of agriculture, and the like) or simple inertia >(why pick up and move somewhere else when you can stay where you are >and build again). Very true, but herein lies the distinction: Ditlana involves the *deliberate* levelling and rebuilding of an entire city at once, whereas all those Troys were presumably destroyed by warfare (the /Illiad/ anyone?) or natural disaster and then rebuilt by survivors or another tribe altogether. Another possibility is simply that over time the houses were rebuilt at a fairly constant rate so that every century or so you wind up with everything changed by accident as it were. The Mayans certainly slapped new layers on their temples, and I think there is reason to believe that this was done at planned intervals, but this is just one structure at a time. Off the top of my head I cannot recall any Ditlana-like occurrances in Earthly history. Plenty of cities have been levelled: the Romans did in Carthage and the Persians destroyed Babylon and sent the inhabitants off to different cities. Plenty of cities have been built from scratch on master plans going back as far as Catal Huyuk in the Neolithic (if recent findings are correct.) But even in this modern age, with all this urban renewal going on, I can't think of ANY city that has actually been ENTIRELY demolished and rebuilt on purpose. If anybody does recall such a case I would like to hear about it (and reconstruction after carpet-bombing does not count!) The concept of any culture, let alone a non-industrial one, doing such a thing is astonishing. I had at least one gamer say flat out to me that such a thing was impossible and unbelievable (it seemed to turn him off on Tekumel altogether-- his loss.) I would not go that far, but I will admit the difficulty. [Moderator's Note: You know, it is funny when people look for silly reasons] [ to dislike Tekumel (or any game system). I had one per-] [ son who didn't like Tekumel because the weather was so ] [ oppressively hot (it was the height of summer). ] [ Go Figure. ] However, I do have one theory that would make it feasable, namely the tremendous antiquity of civilisation on Tekumel. Just their known history goes back five times our own. I occurs to me that by the time the Bednalljans or Engsvanyali (I forget who began Ditlana but I think it was one of them) came on the scene their populations had spread as far as they could and had stabilised at the maximum sustainable level that there simply was no need or interest in founding brand new cities. No one was that interested in colonising the wilderness, so there was little expansion outside the "civilised" areas (with a few exceptions.) The upshot is that all the energy and money that the Empires would have spent on new cities was thus available to rebuild the existing ones in toto. BTW, on the Sakbe Road question, does anybody else realise that their dual commerce/military function exactly parallels the US Interstate Highway system? The Interstates were originally begun in the Cold War as a troop transport system in case of invasion and only later were the economic benefits given priority. Ever notice how much some of those 400-series ring highways around cities look like defensive earthworks? Sometimes Tekumel is not so far away... John -- Erich Schneider writes... A look at a good book on the Mayan civilization will reveal that, in fact, there are quite a few Mayan sites that feature ceremonial elevated stone causeways, and the Mayan (I forget the exact language, there are many "Mayan" langauges) term for these causeways is "sacbe" (plural "sacbeob"). It seems pretty clear to me that's where Prof. Barker got the idea. And, as is stated, the Central Americans were some of the few survivors of the Terran nuclear war (vide the "Tamil-Arabic-Mayan argot" which was the common Terran language). Erich Schneider erich@csdl.tamu.edu http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/~erich -- Thomas Worthington writes... I know this belongs on the newsgroup but the university no longer carries it. Anyway it is relevent to an earlier topic in the list. Everyone get the December National Geographic. It covers much if the Maya material covered in the UK TV program that was mentioned a while back. It does not include a picture of the "cut away" temple, however. It does include a nice fold out panarama of a city, though. Thomas Worthington ----- //608 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker comments further on the Cataclysm topic. ] [ I thought that subject line had a cute ring to it. ;) ] >In India and Pakistan, to this very >day, most magazines, books and even newspapers are hand-calligraphed by >rooms full of scribes squatting with writing boards on their knees. Not >only does this produce some badly calligraphed texts, but the scribes tend >to die off quickly from ailments connected with crouching with the knees >drawn up for long periods while writing. Yet, ask anyone if a change is >wanted. Chances are the answer will be that type spoils the look of the >script. Some older people have difficulty reading a book printed in type, >too. In iran, most headlines seem to be calligraphed, while the articles >themselves are in type. I see I neglected to mention that the hand-calligraphed magazines and newspapers are then reproduced by photo-lithography! They don't make one copy for each reader, as my fuzzy prose suggests! Moderators Note: It was pointed out to me by another reader that the scale ] >[ mentioned by Tom would mean that there were millions (if ] >[ not more) planets in pocket universes. I would have to ] >[ defer to the Professor on the number of planets that dis- ] >[ appeared during the Cataclysm. I would think that this ] >[ would be more appropriate confined to a region of space ] >[ rather than the whole galaxy. A humble opinion. ] The number of planets, suns, etc. etc. in an infinite universe cannot, of course, be known. Whether the universe itself is indeed infinite also cannot be known. Then add to our usual universe an infinity of other Planes, and you end up with a headache! The sending of whole solar systems into other Planes seems to have been deliberate, according to the scholars' best opinions. There is thus no real likelihood of this occurring all through space-time. Since I never send Christmas cards (or Hanukkah or 'Id cards either) let me wish you all the best of the holiday season! From Tekumel, may Lord Hnalla's supernal crystal radiance -- or Lord Ksarul's intertwined indigo glow -- fall upon you and expand your Skein of Destiny! [Moderator's Note: Same goes for me. Happy Holiday season to everyone. ] [ Thanks for contributing to the Blue Room. Chris ] Regards, Phil ----- //609 [Moderator's Note: Dwight Grosso asks about the language of the Shen. ] [ There is a guy in Chicago looking for players. If you ] [ want to get in touch with him his name is Brian Murphy, ] [ and you can reach him via wschall3472@ameritech.net. ] [ I sent this to the list at large since Dwight asked for ] [ all opinions, but please do reply Professor. ] While looking through the Tekumel sourcebook for information concerning Shenyu, I relaized nothing had been said about what the Shen (or any of the other nonhumans) do for a written language. I realize that the Shen can speak the languages of men, and that the reverse is not true. From the information in the sourcebook I gather the Shen are a very advanced race, capable of engineering, complex computations, and the capacity to learn-and learn very well at that! It seems that such a race would have a means of written communication, but perhaps it is orally passed along. Of course, no human could read such a language as it is not based on the same kind of voal chord vibrations. I am curious though, if their culture follows an oral tradition, what great epics are there? It stands to reason that the shen would have great warrior based epics or something amongst the various egg groups. Speaking of which, what are those various egg groups? Some of them are mentioned in the various Armies volumes. I'm sure the answers are not simple, but I look foreward to reading what anyone has to say on the subject. Sincerely, Dwight Grosso ----- //610 [Moderator's Note: Nuno Flavio asks about the Chlen Beast. ] Hi! A thought stuck me the other day. The Tekumelians have domesticated an animal that makes the elephant look like a puppy. Plus it's hide can be treated with chemicals to make a material as thick as bronze, so i assume the "leather" in the living animal is pretty tough too. [Moderator's Note: Domesticated might be an inaccurate word here. Chlen ] [ are dangerous and hard to control. It would be like ] [ saying we have domesticated tigers. Chlen are about the] [ size of an elephant. Some are smaller, some larger, it ] [ depends on the breed. ] So my question is... why as no one ever remebered to use the Chlen in warfare ? The possibilities are enourmous, even a wild stampede of Chlen beasts must be something to behold, the animals will flatten anything on their path, and just imagine the number of soldiers it can carry, maybe a tower filled with archers ? [Moderator's Note: The Professor will correct me if I am wrong. It has ] [ been tried, but the Chlen is a skittish beast. ] [ They also easily frightened, and when the are frightened] [ they usually turn around to leave the battlefield, right] [ over your own troops. If I was an infantryman, I'd ] [ never follow a Chlen into battle, well, maybe from a ] [ pretty good distance. ] Several ancient human cultures used the elephant as a mount, they were a bit unprdectable but their effect on the moral of the foe would more than make up to it. We all know Tekumel is tradition-bound and innovations aren't especially wellcome, but even so it's odd that the Chlen has been around for all this time without ever beeing used. or maybe it has but the results were so desastrous that the records of the battle(s) are now locked away in a deep vault somewere in a forgotten temple of Karakan :) [Moderator's Note: The Professor may have some details, but it has been ] [ tried, with less than stellar results. ] Comments ? P.S. - I hope i'm not making a crass error here, i'm writting this based on what i've read about the Chlen and the it's descriptions. I've never really seen a drawing of one. >From a little country at the end of Europe Nuno Flavio ----- //611 [Moderator's Note: James Eckman and Jim Chapin respond to the Technology on ] [ Tekumel thread. Messages up throught 617 will be deliv- ] [ ered on autopilot. When one finishes delivery, it spawns] [ delivery of the next. If there are any problems I'll re-] [ send them. ] Reply to Gordon Neff: As Westerner trained as an engineer, I am in total agreement with you. After all maybe this is the beginning of the Tsolyanu Renaissance! However the forces driving a given culture vary quite a bit among each other. As our moderator pointed out vested interests might have a say. Also other factors play a hand. In Europe starting with people like Agricola, Cellini, and other artist/craftsmen/scribes, how-to manuals were written and distributed. I can't imagine under the current regime that the guilds/clans would allow this. This giving away of information is a pretty weird custom that's fairly recent even in our Western society. I've worked with older carpenters and machinists raised up in the apprentice tradition, who basically won't tell you anything, it's a secret/mysterie(old spelling)! In China, they published some of this information but this requires 5-10 years to learn how read (not understanding, the basic ability to read) unlike English where some adults have been taught to read in as little as 3 weeks. In addition, in China, some learning/teachings were destroyed because the inventors were out of favour with the Imperial Successor. We know at one time the Chinese worked quite a bit on clocks, but almost all the information was destroyed by those who followed on. (Sacrilege!) Western culture kept and transmitted data, this is probably one requirement for large amounts of innovation. Another difference is magic, a bright young man with a little magical potential can learn things that make most primitive technologies look pretty sad. Why work for a few decades trying to make a force projector of some primitive type, when you can just cast a spell? Where do the bright people go in Tsolyanu society? Vested interests have already been mentioned by our moderator. Mysterys and secrets! I am sure there is innovation and invention going on in Tsolyanu, but how much winds up in the vaults of Ksarul and others like him! I used to have little techy widgets as treasure items (primitive telescopes and the like). With 100s of little groups working away in secrecy I'm sure there is duplication and the next generation often never gets the benefit of this data. It would only take one generation of carelessness to destroy the work of 500 years! As for modifying the Professor's world, feel free, but I think a large number of inventions in a short period of time would probably spoil the flavor:) -- Jim Chapin writes... >"Somehow I can hear >Dinah Shore singing, "East is East, and West is West / And the wrong one I >have chose..." Wasn't that Bob Hope in Paleface? Failure to develop continuous "scientific and technological progress" doesn't require religious reasons. Peter Green's great survey of the Hellenistic world, "From Alexander to Actium," shows the many reasons that no consistent pattern of scientific OR technological progress developed in the relatively "rationalist" world of the Hellenes. Indeed, in all of human history, the only society that seems to have shown a continuous pattern of technological advance is that of Western Europe -- and, by the way, that pattern of development became obvious as early as the 10th & 11th centuries! Historians have not yet been able to figure out just why the Medieval West was ALREADY a technological civilization par excellence, but I do think the fact that such a civilization arose only once in human history suggests that there is nothing particularly "natural" to humans about the idea of continued progress. It's just hard for us to realize that, because we live in a society in which such a concept is indeed basic (and nowhere more than in the United States of America). And that doesn't even take into account the effect that the existence of "magic" would have on the evolution of technology. Indeed, I am sure that all of us who play on Tekumel, like most of those in RPGs, cannot help treating magic as technology, or, for that matter, treating the gaming world we are in an essentially economistic, "mini-maxing" fashion that comes naturally to 20th-century Americans, but would not be at all natural either to our characters nor to the way they would "really" act or think. This is a case where gaming RULES of "experience points" or "levels" are necessary to satisfy the PLAYERS but interfere severely with Role-Playing. Jim Chapin ----- //612 [Moderator's Note: Peter Bismire responds to the thread on Ditlana. ] Matthew Pook said in 581: >Is this building over of tombs and the like, the souce of Ditlana? An interesting thought but I'd like to suggest another: recovery after the Cataclysm(s). The destroyed cities and centres of the Ancients must have had an attraction for the peoples of the Latter Times. As a source of artifacts, parts, materials and shelter many would have been occupied by squatters "mining" the resource. As these became organised (or recovered some of the pre-Cataclysm organisation) adaptions of old building to new uses would also have involved the clearing of sites as populations grew and inconvenient rubble was removed. After a period (a thousand years plus?) the sites were obviously levelling out to make roads and access to the newer buildings easier. At some stage this became a formalised process and Ditlana was truly born. There is also a reason for it's continuity: flooding and the deposition of new material on the plains. This has buried and "lost" Purdanim a city where there was insufficient population and/or interest to continue Ditlana. ----- //613 [Moderator's Note: Ian Atkinson explores the Telepathy net vs. Signalling ] [ (that's right, semaphores!) thread. ] The spells in the Gardasiyal are used by individual sorcerors for individual activities. In modern military terms the attack spells are roughly equivalent to an individual soldier's weapons (Radiant Gaze = hand grenade, etc). For Imperial-scale activities involving legions, "military sorcerors" are employed in teams to cast spells that are at least one order of magnitude more potent, and which might be viewed as equivalent to artillery in modern terms (with Demonology being the Tsolyani equivalent of nuclear weapons). I expect that the same is true for telepathy. The Ascertainment spell which transfers spoken messages over a 10-mile range is okay for individuals and small groups (ie, player characters), but is probably not used for important communications or along major "trunk routes" such as linking Jakalla with Bey Su. As has been pointed out, the Chinese whisper effect would make Ascertainment useless for this job. Instead, "military telepaths" would be used for such activities. [Moderator's Note: I felt that the network of Telepaths used very specilli- ] [ lized spells. Whether they be some variety of Temple ] [ spell, or something known only to Sorcerors of the OAL. ] [ Perhaps the Professor can clear this up? ] If the mode of communication by military telepaths is visual rather than auditory, bandwidth would cease to be a problem since messages can be sent as quickly as they can be read (and prepared for transmission by clerks). Consider how rapidly people with photographic memory can learn and regurgitate text, even if they don't understand it. The main bottle-neck would be at the receiving end, since one cannot write or dictate as quickly as one can read. Perhaps the military telepaths parcel out bits of messages to people with lesser telepathic training who in turn pass smaller bits on to people using the standard Ascertainment spell in a branch network. For each team of military telepaths there might be several hundred secretaries, each taking dictation (is there a Tsolyani equivalent for shorthand?) from a regular sorceror who has plugged into the network by casting his Ascertainment spell. Since humans with telepathic training are more portable than 20 yard tall heliographs, a telepathic network has a flexibility similar to that of radio. The possibility of visual telepathic communication combined with the quickness of pure thought could give bandwidth similar to that of video. Transmission rates could be further increased by High Calligraphy, a means of compressing information which allows (as mentioned in Man of Gold) the nuances of an entire language to be expressed in a single objet d'art. A form of computer-like activity could even be simulated by linking in idiot savants for calculation and mnemonists for data storage. Arthur C. Clarke's famous remark that "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" can be reversed: any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from high technology. In the descriptions of Tekumel it is stated that the telepathic networks don't extend across the oceans, and the 10-mile range of Ascertainment explains why this is so. If longer range military telepathy is possible the telepathic isolation of places like Vra is inconsistent, unless we posit that the oceans, or creatures within them, produce some sort of telepathic "static". This view of how the Empire's telepathic system works also explains how the temples of Karakan and Vimhula don't have Ascertainment when the ability to communicate is so essential to effective military action: those temples do have telepaths, but only at the "military sorcery" level not at the individual level. Ian Atkinson. ----- //614 [Moderator's Note: Brett Slocum has updated his Tekumel FAQ. Be sure to ] [ visit his web site, which he has also updated. There are] [ now numerous collaborative areas there. I have also in- ] [ cluded a comment that Bob Alberti made to something I ] [ wrote in the Status of the Empire message. Rather than ] [ include the whole FAQ, I am including the URL. Brett, I ] [ did this for numerous reasons, but mainly because the use] [ of accents caused Tekumel to look like Tikumel. :) ] Brett Slocum writes... Tekumel Frequently Asked Questions This document resides on the World Wide Web on Illuminati Online (http://www.io.com/~slocum/tek_faq.html ). Last update: 22-Dec-1997 If you have any suggestions for new FAQ questions, or if I made some mistakes, or if you feel some additional info would help a FAQ question, or if you want to write up a FAQ question, feel free to suggest/correct/ do it and send it to Brett Slocum (slocum@io.com). Announcing an upgrade to my Tekumel web site, the oldest Tekumel web site on the net. Find it at: http://www.io.com/~slocum/tekumel.html Now including The Little House of Tranquil Dwelling chat and Imperial Dispatches campaign description areas. Also, information about Tekumel, FAQ, GURPS Tekumel rules, etc. Check it out! -- Bob Alberti writes... At 02:49 PM 12/21/97 -0600, you wrote: >possible conclusions about Mridobu. >1. He's dead. >2. He's a Mrur or Shedra somewhere. >3. He's been Mind Barred, or effectively lobotomized. > >he would be ineffective as a politician I really don't see where this evaluation of his politicial potential follows from your conclusions! :-) [Moderator's Note: One of your funniest insights yet, Bob! ] ----- //615 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti forwards a conversation that took place on the] [ Tekumel newsgroup. I compiled the 3 messages into 1. ] The following three messages are the "Gods discussion" mentioned earlier in posts to the Blue Room. Yes, it's true, the spam slacked off enough to permit an actual dialogue in the newsgroup. That, combined with Dhich'une's departure from the Golden Tower, mark this as a very special Intercalary Season. If you've read these posts in the newsgroup, you can skip these messages. If not, read on! [Message 1] >darkdwight@aol.com (DarkDwight) wrote: >>It seems to me that our Western way of thinking still blurs the issue of good >>and evil as it pertains to the gods of Tekumel. Were any of the war gods in >>all the pantheons of earth particularly good? Perhaps not but they served a >>vital role in society.>>Hmm... did they? Of course they did. It's important to understand, these gods were a means to explain the world. Now the fact that the explanation was used to justify bad acts is separate from their function as tools to explain. >War gods made war more palatable to the human mind. Yes. And regardless of how you feel about war, the mind needs its explanations, and will fashion them from the data available. This process is not bad per se, it's the exploitation of this process to justify bad things which is bad. The process, being an innate characteristic of humanity, is neither good or bad. We're pattern-matchers, it's part of how we survived the jungles. >True, and this is the most horrific result of the marvelous human >ability to complete patterns without sufficient data. Fabricating a >superbeing to explain currently unexplainable phenomena and then >ascribing humanlike motivations to it has caused more death and >destruction than any other human force. You're jumping several steps here. Belief in deity is not a "cause" of atrocity. Atrocity occurs when someone claims the power of the deity through divine privilege: when someone "steps between" the believer and the focus of their belief. When someone says, "I know better than you about the god." Then the priest says "The god said 'kill.'" But people still have to buy that story. It's simple ignorance and fear which are the cause of war. Even if there were no gods, there would still have been wars. There would simply have been wars, and just as many wars, for the same real reasons, but with different justifications.>Presumably the >Pariah Gods don't want the energy or don't particularly care for the >quality of energy provided by humans. (Although they don't reject >human worshippers)The humans are tools. The end sought is nullity of else. >One thing I've never understood was why these beings have such an >interest in Tekumel? Does the unusual state of the timespace around >Tekumel provide some intrinsic attraction? That's part of the Big Secret, isn't it? It may well be due to the fact that Tekumel is "it" for its particular Universe. Divine attention is much more plausible when there's only one place where life exists in the universe. >Or is it just that on >Tekumel worship DOES provide some benefit to them, whereas elswhere it >doesn't or doesn't as much? The gods certainly seem to care that they be worshipped, and worshipped after particular fashions. They seem to get SOMETHING from it... >Are the Pariah Gods simply far less able to take advantage of this? No, the Pariah Gods have different goals. This isn't accurate, but imagine if the multiverse, all of existence, were your sleeping bag. Now you want to snuggle warmly into your cozy sleeping bag, but you find that it's full of hot little pinpricks of stars, and annoying buzzing and biting insects. Worse, there are a bunch of other people trying to sleep in the same sleeping bag, and they seem to LIKE the pinpricks and the bugbites. Wouldn't you like to eliminate all that and settle down to rest? If one bug ate lots of the other bugs, wouldn't you be likely to employ that bug to eat a bunch of the others before you squashed it? And wouldn't you want the other people, the other gods, OUT of your sleeping bag? >(And does that mean Ksarul is "faking" it? >If so why?) Or do the different races provide different qualities of >benefit that the different gods are able to take advantage of to >different degrees? (i.e. the inimical races provide tastier worship >than humans to them) I don't know about that, but it might explain why different species rarely cross over to worship the gods of other species, except as a formality in order to be part of the culture of a given locale. Oh, by the way, Dhich'une is no longer Emperor. But he's not dead. Well, he's not any MORE dead. To learn more, you'll have to subscribe to the Blue Room Mailing List if you don't already, at blueroom@nexus.prin.edu. -- [Message 2] faithkills@premier.net wrote: >"Robin Jones" wrote: >>"Joseph M. Saul" wrote >>>...which is because the Pariah Gods and their worshippers supposedly want >>>to kill and destroy *all* life on Tekumel... (Well, maybe the One Other >>>doesn't, but who knows?) They don't so much want to kill and destroy, as they want to make "have never been," to nullify and omit. >>Now this is one of those conundrums that has been bothering me. the One >>Other helped the gods to imprison Ksarul but he is still regarded as a >>Pariah God, why? Why isn't Ksarul regarded as a Pariah God? The One Other helped because he could, and because the other gods let him. They used each other toward different ends.>> And what was >>the point in imrisoning him when his devotees still hold so much power? His devotees hold very little power in relationship to the gods. It is instead a measure of how powerful he had grown that it took more than the other nine gods and their cohorts to imprison him, and that even imprisoned he continues to influence events. He is not a Pariah Deity, I suspect, because while he strove for individual supremacy, he did not do so with the goal of the nullity of all things, including the other gods. Maybe he'd have gotten around to that. But he was fighting for dominance, not soleness. >Presumably he was imprisoned for one of three reasons. >1) They couldn't destroy him (only reasonable if no gods can be >destroyed period, which there are hints both ways) The Mitlanyal could not destroy him because he was a part of them, a part of the balance. Destroying him would be like chopping off one's own foot, but worse. Ksarul is part of the scheme of things -- without all twenty, you have imbalance. The Stability gods won't go for that, and they opposed Ksarul most strongly. >2) They didn't want to destroy him or might have need of him later... >like perhaps in holding off the Pariah Gods or Vimuh'la later. Yes, but they need him now. He just has to be. >3) He isn't really or totally imprisoned at all, and it was more or >less a trick. Perhaps he's running around incognito as it were...:) Well, that theory has been advanced on more than one occassion... >>Why isn't his worship and/or any attempt to free imprisonment outlawed? It was during the long religious battles that raged before the founding of the first empires. But since Pavar revealed that the Mitlanyal are all part of the noble scheme of the world, Ksarul's position has been respected. >Well I certainly wouldn't parade a Key around and expect not to be >apprehended by _somebody_, probably the first group that could get >there. As for laws, I don't think the Imperium really has any >jurisdiction in the matter by the Concordat, but you can be sure you >would get immediate, and probably terminal resistance were you to try. Wards and Keys have power of their own, and are as dangerous to "parade around" as any other powerful thing. Speaking strictly legally, however, everything in the Empire belongs to the Emperor. If an you had a Plaque (sp?), a Ward, or a Key, the OAL would be knocking shortly. The Temple of Ksarul being what it is, the person who arrived might very well be both a highly placed member of the OAL and also a highly-placed member of the Temple of Ksarul (more likely an agent for such a person). The person would claim the Key in the name of the Emperor, who might or might not ever be notified of this action. Were you cooperative and judged safe, you might receive a reward. Were you uncooperative or deemed unsafe, you would probably be disappeared or at least mind-barred so that you would not recall ever having had such a thing. -- [Message 3] faithkills@premier.net wrote: >I wasn't talking about Keys or Wards at this point but the legality or >illegality of an attempt to free him of its own. By my understanding >of the Concordat the Imperium is to stay out of matters between the >Gods and their Temples. Of course this does require physical property >and even if it didn't the Imperium would probably act anyway, but I >doubt there is a law on any book forbidding the release of the Doomed >Prince specifically and ideally accd to the Concordat there would be >no basis for one.Well, who would have jurisdiction over a god? These matters transcend mere law. Most Tsolyani, even the most educated, consider the Wards and Keys mere mythology. Nobody would seriously go off looking for a Ward or a Key. Among those few whose skills and education suit them to understand that the Wards and Keys exist, matters of mere law are unimportant. If one is to seek a Ward or Key to free the God, one will do so regardless of what a law might say. Such a venture places one's very soul at great peril, and is a challenge to all the known gods -- at such a stage, law is irrelevant. [Moderator's Note: I must agree with Bob on Wards and Keys issue. I thought] [ that there should be a secret society dedicated to the ] [ recovery and use of the keys and wards. I spoke with the] [ Professor at great length. The gist of his response was ] [ that most Tekumelani (even the Ksarul hierarchy) just ] [ wouldn't think to do it. It is "God stuff" for lack of a] [ better term. I considered running a campaign based on ] [ this premise stretching 10 to 20+ real years, and maybe ] [ centuries (or longer) of actual game time. The Professor] [ hinted that if Ksarul was ever freed, horrible things ] [ would happen. He would not elaborate. ] >why _Vimu'hla_ is not considered a Pariah God. Vimuhla wants continued existence in his own fashion. The Pariah Gods want everything to Never Have Been. No flame, no intellect, no history, no time. If the Pariah Gods win, the battle will have never even been fought. >Vimu'hla and the Pariah Gods seem to be agents of >"Law" in the extreme. Where the Stability Gods really do seem to want >to maintain the status quo, or "Balance". It is much more complicated than that, but the Tlokiriqaluyal and the Tlomitlanyal represent concepts closer to "Society versus the Individual" than "Law" or "Good" versus "Evil" or "Bad." The Tlomitlanyal support the continuation of that which should be, proper and noble cycles of events, and the needs of society over the individual. The Tlokiriqaluyal support the moment, the experience of self and now, and the achievement of the desires of the individual over the needs of society. Vimuhla expresses the need of the individual for freedom and destruction, the experience of violent dissolution, the shattering of imposed order. Ksarul expresses ambition, ego, the acquirement of power as a means to self aggrandizement within one's noble skein of destiny. Sarku represents the dominance of self over time, the perpetuation of ego despite the limitations of age and the cycles of nature, and the continued witness of the self to Lord Hru'u's victory of never-ending change. The Pariah Deities seek that this all not be, never have been, wasn't. ---- //616 [Moderator's Note: The Professor replies to the Sakbe and Ditlana thread. ] Dear Chris and BlueRoomers, >>Possibly, but I don't think so. As I recall, the practice of building >>new cities atop old ones is not singular to the Central or South >>American civilizations; several such sites have been found throughout >>the Middle East and Asia Minor. The most famous example of such a >>city is probably that of Troy, a series of nine cities (at least) >>built one atop the next. >> >>In my opinion, there is no reason why building repeatedly on the >>same site should be a function of a particular culture. There are >>usually good reasons to stay in the same place, often involving >>advantageous location (ease of defense/transportation, proximity to >>water sources, ease of agriculture, and the like) or simple inertia >>(why pick up and move somewhere else when you can stay where you are >>and build again). > >Very true, but herein lies the distinction: Ditlana involves the >*deliberate* levelling and rebuilding of an entire city at once, whereas >all those Troys were presumably destroyed by warfare (the /Illiad/ >anyone?) or natural disaster and then rebuilt by survivors or another >tribe altogether. Another possibility is simply that over time the >houses were rebuilt at a fairly constant rate so that every century or >so you wind up with everything changed by accident as it were. The >Mayans certainly slapped new layers on their temples, and I think there >is reason to believe that this was done at planned intervals, but this >is just one structure at a time. The Tekumelani took the concept of replacing one building and extended it to most of a city (usually not suburbs or outlying districts, which may have their own Ditlana). The stated goal is "purity in the eyes of the Gods." This is especially valid in the case of Lord Hnalla's crystal-clear radiance, but less so for other deities. Still, the Tlakotanis give precedence to Lord Hnalla, and his priesthood is extremely powerful, socially and politically. >Off the top of my head I cannot recall any Ditlana-like occurrances in >Earthly history. Plenty of cities have been levelled: the Romans did >in Carthage and the Persians destroyed Babylon and sent the inhabitants >off to different cities. Plenty of cities have been built from scratch >on master plans going back as far as Catal Huyuk in the Neolithic (if >recent findings are correct.) But even in this modern age, with all >this urban renewal going on, I can't think of ANY city that has actually >been ENTIRELY demolished and rebuilt on purpose. If anybody does recall >such a case I would like to hear about it (and reconstruction after >carpet-bombing does not count!) It may not be possible to provide an exact Terran counterpart, but the extension of the Terran "renewal" concept to a larger scale, possible with a large population and many skilled workers, should be do-able, if there is societal and governmental support. >The concept of any culture, let alone a non-industrial one, doing such a >thing is astonishing. I had at least one gamer say flat out to me that >such a thing was impossible and unbelievable (it seemed to turn him off >on Tekumel altogether-- his loss.) I would not go that far, but I will >admit the difficulty. To each his own. Just think what he's missing! And think, too, of all the equally astonishing features of our own Terran cultures that may initially seem unbelievable to some folk! Pyramids, anyone? Plains of Nazca? Mount Rushmore? >[Moderator's Note: You know, it is funny when people look for silly reasons] >[ to dislike Tekumel (or any game system). I had one per-] >[ son who didn't like Tekumel because the weather was so ] >[ oppressively hot (it was the height of summer). ] >[ Go Figure. ] Get a priest of Hru'u to cast an ice spell on a bucket of water, then an Avanthe priest to blow air over it -- you have simple airconditioning! Just don't go traipsing down the road loaded down with 40-60 pounds of plate armour! This is the real sticker for some players -- they always want to be fully armed and armoured, even while out walking or in bed! >However, I do have one theory that would make it feasable, namely the >tremendous antiquity of civilisation on Tekumel. Just their known >history goes back five times our own. I occurs to me that by the time >the Bednalljans or Engsvanyali (I forget who began Ditlana but I think >it was one of them) came on the scene their populations had spread as >far as they could and had stabilised at the maximum sustainable level >that there simply was no need or interest in founding brand new cities. >No one was that interested in colonising the wilderness, so there was >little expansion outside the "civilised" areas (with a few exceptions.) >The upshot is that all the energy and money that the Empires would have >spent on new cities was thus available to rebuild the existing ones in >toto. Very good. This is indeed part of it. >BTW, on the Sakbe Road question, does anybody else realise that their >dual commerce/military function exactly parallels the US Interstate >Highway system? The Interstates were originally begun in the Cold War >as a troop transport system in case of invasion and only later were the >economic benefits given priority. Ever notice how much some of those >400-series ring highways around cities look like defensive earthworks? > >Sometimes Tekumel is not so far away... Hah! You figured out one of the reasons for the proliferation of Sakbe roads around large population centres! >John >-- > >Erich Schneider writes... > >A look at a good book on the Mayan civilization will reveal that, in >fact, there are quite a few Mayan sites that feature ceremonial >elevated stone causeways, and the Mayan (I forget the exact language, >there are many "Mayan" langauges) term for these causeways is "sacbe" >(plural "sacbeob"). It seems pretty clear to me that's where Prof. >Barker got the idea. And, as is stated, the Central Americans were >some of the few survivors of the Terran nuclear war (vide the >"Tamil-Arabic-Mayan argot" which was the common Terran language). > >Erich Schneider erich@csdl.tamu.edu http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/~erich Exactly. The "c" in "sacbe" is simply a "k" in pronunciation: "sakbe." The "k" in the trasncription of most Mayan languages stands for a *glottalised* "k," a sound English lacks. In modern transcription, a glottalised "k" is written with a small raised comma over a "k" -- can't do it on this keyboard. >-- > >Thomas Worthington writes... > >I know this belongs on the newsgroup but the university no longer >carries it. Anyway it is relevent to an earlier topic in the list. > >Everyone get the December National Geographic. It covers much if the >Maya material covered in the UK TV program that was mentioned a while >back. It does not include a picture of the "cut away" temple, >however. It does include a nice fold out panarama of a city, though. > >Thomas Worthington There are some older issues, too. One or two had full colour paintings of life in the Maya world. Your library should have some of those. They inspired me when I was developing Tekumel long ago. Regards, Phil ----- //617 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies on the Shen language. ] >While looking through the Tekumel sourcebook for information concerning >Shenyu, I relaized nothing had been said about what the Shen (or any of the >other nonhumans) do for a written language. I realize that the Shen can speak >the languages of men, and that the reverse is not true. From the >information in the sourcebook I gather the Shen are a very advanced race, >capable of engineering, complex computations, and the capacity to learn-and >learn very well at that! It seems that such a race would have a means of >written communication, but perhaps it is orally passed along. Of course, no >human could read such a language as it is not based on the same kind of voal >chord vibrations. I am curious though, if their culture follows an oral >tradition, what great epics are there? It stands to reason that the shen >would have great warrior based epics or something amongst the various egg >groups. Speaking of which, what are those various egg groups? Some of them >are mentioned in the various Armies volumes. I'm sure the answers are not >simple, but I look foreward to reading what anyone has to say on the subject. > >Sincerely, >Dwight Grosso Yes, the Shen do have a written language. Humans can conceivably learn it to read -- but not to pronounce since Shen speech organs are so different, and there are several sounds that defy any human to produce. The grammar is also complex, too, but the real confusion lies in cultural comprehension of these reptile-like creatures. Some day I should produce a font for the Shen syllabary just as a point of interest -- but that's a largish task! The Shen can indeed perform all sorts of complex tasks, but at some point they stop being just "humans in reptile suits" and take on their own cultural identity. This is very hard to convey to those of you who have never yet encountered a Shen. Shen epics are supposed to be lengthy and interesting. A good epic is filled, as the Shen themselves say, with suitable roaring, belching, slavering, and dripping. The Shen have nothing against violence and blood, and their literature is thus quite unsuitable for human children. [Moderator's Note: Hey, I grew up with those insanely violent cartoons, and ] [ still enjoy to this day a good game of Duke Nukem, or ] [ Quake (have aspirations to buy Postal soon) but would ] [ never dream of hurting another human (glad I was never ] [ drafted). What is my point? Well, violence is not in- ] [ herently bad for a child, as long as they are taught that] [ violence is not condoned except in the most dire circum- ] [ stances. Of course this im MHO, and I have no kids. And ] [ this is wildly off topic and I apologize for that. I ] [ guess that I shouldn't let this through, but I couldn't ] [ let that unsuitable thing go by unchallenged. If there ] [ are Shen in the world, Tekumelani children should know ] [ something about their culture. I think if the poor child] [ that was eaten by the Shen in that anecdote the Professor] [ related earlier had some inkling of Shen behavior, he ] [ might not have been so easily been turned into an appe- ] [ tizer. ] Regards, Phil ----- //618 [Moderator's Note: Ian Young offers up some more ideas about Ditlana. ] Peter Bismire considers one rationale to justify buried cities... >There is also a reason for it's continuity: flooding and the deposition >of new material on the plains. This has buried and lost Purdanim a >city where there was insufficient population and/or interest to continue >Ditlana. Good point, but it has its geomorphological counter-point as well: Every stream that deposits sediments that cover one area will be eroding material from another. Thus, for any river that covers any given significant archeological site (as some people have suggested the Nile may have done in Egypt), it perhaps as likely that stream meandering and incision will uncover another (as has been the case in Copan, mentioned in previous posts). Taking a good look at the map of Jakalla, and considering the antiquity of the ruins that supposedly underlie its current surface, I find it highly likely that the rivers to either side of the city have opened passages to its Underworld on numerous occasions (besides those that the sewers themselves present). If I were an adventurous lad with a sword in hand and a lick of rudimentary geological know-how, I'd be skirting the city's walls in a skiff, looking for a convenient in-road. Of course, that's not to say that any passage I found wouldn't quickly end up in a dead-end. Gone, Ian Young ----- //619 [Moderator's Note: Leonard Erickson contributes some ideas to the Sakbe and ] [ Ditlana thread. ] >[Moderator's Note: More discussion on the origins of Sakbe and Ditlana. ] > >John Smith writes... >>>Is this building over of tombs and the like, the souce of Ditlana? >>Possibly, but I don't think so. As I recall, the practice of building >>new cities atop old ones is not singular to the Central or South >>American civilizations; several such sites have been found throughout >>the Middle East and Asia Minor. The most famous example of such a >>city is probably that of Troy, a series of nine cities (at least) >>built one atop the next. >>In my opinion, there is no reason why building repeatedly on the >>same site should be a function of a particular culture. There are >>usually good reasons to stay in the same place, often involving >>advantageous location (ease of defense/transportation, proximity to >>water sources, ease of agriculture, and the like) or simple inertia >>(why pick up and move somewhere else when you can stay where you are >>and build again). >Very true, but herein lies the distinction: Ditlana involves the >*deliberate* levelling and rebuilding of an entire city at once, whereas >all those Troys were presumably destroyed by warfare (the /Illiad/ >anyone?) or natural disaster and then rebuilt by survivors or another >tribe altogether. Another possibility is simply that over time the >houses were rebuilt at a fairly constant rate so that every century or >so you wind up with everything changed by accident as it were. The >Mayans certainly slapped new layers on their temples, and I think there >is reason to believe that this was done at planned intervals, but this >is just one structure at a time. >Off the top of my head I cannot recall any Ditlana-like occurrances in >Earthly history. Plenty of cities have been levelled: the Romans did >in Carthage and the Persians destroyed Babylon and sent the inhabitants >off to different cities. Plenty of cities have been built from scratch >on master plans going back as far as Catal Huyuk in the Neolithic (if >recent findings are correct.) But even in this modern age, with all >this urban renewal going on, I can't think of ANY city that has actually >been ENTIRELY demolished and rebuilt on purpose. If anybody does recall >such a case I would like to hear about it (and reconstruction after >carpet-bombing does not count!) I'm fairly certain that (at least at one time) the opinion regarding the Mayan cities *was* that they did the "tear down and rebuild" bit at the start of each 52 year cycle, -- Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) ----- //620 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker expands on the Chlen and its fitness for] [ use in battle. ] >Hi! >A thought stuck me the other day. The Tekumelians have domesticated an >animal that makes the elephant look like a puppy. Plus it's hide can be >treated with chemicals to make a material as thick as bronze, so i assume >the "leather" in the living animal is pretty tough too. >[Moderator's Note: Domesticated might be an inaccurate word here. Chlen ] >[ are dangerous and hard to control. It would be like ] >[ saying we have domesticated tigers. Chlen are about the] >[ size of an elephant. Some are smaller, some larger, it ] >[ depends on the breed. ] >So my question is... why as no one ever remebered to use the Chlen in >warfare ? This has been tried not once but many times. The Bednalljans did it, the Engsvanyali tried it, and in modern times the Mu'ugalavyani attempted to breed a "domestic" Chlen that would not go on rampages right through their own troops. They succeeded so well that their Chlen simply sat down on the battlefield and went to sleep waiting for dinner! The creatures are intractable when afraid: they are terrified of arrows, flashes and bangs of magical spells, and the stench of blood and death. >The possibilities are enourmous, even a wild stampede of Chlen beasts must >be something to behold, the animals will flatten anything on their path, >and just imagine the number of soldiers it can carry, maybe a tower filled >with archers ? Say goodbye to said archers! >[Moderator's Note: The Professor will correct me if I am wrong. It has ] >[ been tried, but the Chlen is a skittish beast. ] >[ They also easily frightened, and when the are frightened] >[ they usually turn around to leave the battlefield, right] >[ over your own troops. If I was an infantryman, I'd ] >[ never follow a Chlen into battle, well, maybe from a ] >[ pretty good distance. ] They even panic once in awhile while drawing carts on the Sakbe roads. >Several ancient human cultures used the elephant as a mount, they were a >bit unprdectable but their effect on the moral of the foe would more than >make up to it. An intelligent enemy would make all kinds of noise and fire missiles at the beast's face. >We all know Tekumel is tradition-bound and innovations aren't especially >wellcome, but even so it's odd that the Chlen has been around for all this >time without ever beeing used. or maybe it has but the results were so >desastrous that the records of the battle(s) are now locked away in a deep >vault somewere in a forgotten temple of Karakan :) > >[Moderator's Note: The Professor may have some details, but it has been ] >[ tried, with less than stellar results. ] > >Comments ? > >P.S. - I hope i'm not making a crass error here, i'm writting this based >on what i've read about the Chlen and the it's descriptions. I've >never really seen a drawing of one. Get A copy of the Tekumel Bestiary, available from TOME. There's a Chlen picture in there. >>From a little country at the end of Europe > >Nuno Flavio Regards, Phil ----- //621 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to Peter's comments on Ditlana. ] >>Is this building over of tombs and the like, the souce of Ditlana? >An interesting thought but I'd like to suggest another: recovery after >the Cataclysm(s). The destroyed cities and centres of the Ancients must >have had an attraction for the peoples of the Latter Times. As a source >of artifacts, parts, materials and shelter many would have been occupied >by squatters ěminingî the resource. As these became organised (or >recovered some of the pre-Cataclysm organisation) adaptions of old >building to new uses would also have involved the clearing of sites as >populations grew and inconvenient rubble was removed. This is certainly part of it, although perhaps few Tekumelani would recognise this as a reason. Ask any Tsolyani or Mu'ugalavyani (the two modern nations most interested in Ditlana), and they'll tell you that "purity in the eyes of the Gods" is the basis for this custom. When cities grow old and crowded, stinking and disease-ridden, it's time for a new city. Having built the old city on a convenient site -- harbour, mountain pass, etc., very few cities can be completely moved to new locales. So... build on top! Get rid of the old layer by simply burying it. >After a period (a thousand years plus?) the sites were obviously >levelling out to make roads and access to the newer buildings easier. At >some stage this became a formalised process and Ditlana was truly born. You may be right, although there are other factors. >There is also a reason for itís continuity: flooding and the deposition >of new material on the plains. This has buried and ělostî Purdanim a >city where there was insufficient population and/or interest to continue >Ditlana. Yes, flooding on the great Missuma Plain has also been a factor. Building a city *higher* by setting it atop a platform of stone taken from a previous incarnation of that city is a good way to get up above floods, disease-ridden insects, etc. (Disease is more common on Tekumel than the gamebooks imply. Player characters usually have access to "Heal" and "Alleviation" spells, which on "real Tekumel" are not all that common and are reserved for the wealthier classes. Regards, Phil ----- //622 [Moderator's Note: Edmund Metheny asks questions about the Chaigari ] [ Protectorate and other areas of Tekumel. ] >I have been a fan of Tekumel for many years, and have just begun a campaign >set in the city of Hekellu. Since Hekellu is quite different than Jakalla, >where my previous campaigns have been set, I have a few questions about the >area. >1) What are the main exports of the Chaigari Protectorate? Leather, wood (both lumber and fine woods for furnishings), blue-white marble prized for facades of important buildings, rough cloth bags for storage, pitch and other gums, red pigment for dyes, etc. >2) Is the Kanayugara river navigable around Hekellu? A small craft with a draught no more than a cubit can navigate most of it. Some places it is deeper, but in most locales it is shallow with a muddy bottom and reeds, tangle-vines, and stink-plants. It is also home to a smaller variety of Ghar, which make their lunch on passing mariners... >3) Which faction in the ongoing civil war is the current governer of the >city supporting? After hanging back and refusing to take sides for a long time, the priesthood of Hekellu opted for Prince Rereshqala. Now that the war is at last over (apparently), the clans, priethoods, and government institutions have swung hard into Prince Mirusiya's camp. >4) What is the city itself like? Any known "points of interest" in the >area? This is rather too large a topic to be addressed in short order. I do have a hand-sketched map of Hekellu someplace. Perhaps one of my players can scan it in and send it to you. Help? [Moderator's Note: I can add it to the collection if someone up in Min- ] [ neapolis can scan it and send it to me (of if someon can ] [ get me a photocopy, I can scan it myself. ] >5) Is the Legion of the Many Legged Serpent still the only legion in the >area, or have reinforcements been sent east? The legion went west to help in the siege of Avanthar, under the command of the Ksarul prince, Taksuru. Most of its elements are still there, although they'll be coming home right after the Kolumejalim. During the interim there were only a few Cohorts in the city, plus Sakbe-road guards, city police, etc. The breakup of the holy war under the Young Master kept the tribes embroiled in their own battles, and they did not attack the city. >Thanks! Best regards, Phil ----- //623 [Moderator's Note: Ian Yound asks some questions about he Pocket Dimensions ] [ that Tekumel and other Solar Systems were flung into. ] [ Never heard of the term Sun-Shifter before Professor. :) ] >As a new participant on this list, I hope I'll not be addressing topics >that have already been discussed to death. My question at the moment pertains >to nature of the "pocket dimension" into which Tuleng and its accompanying >planetary system were drawn. More particularly, what I would like to know is, >what was the fate of the *other* star systems that were pinched off into >pocket >dimensions? I distinctly recall (though I know not from where) the allusion >that the issue would be addressed in later Tekumel novels. As said novels are >not immediately forthcoming, may I ask for a bit of a teaser? I'll rattle off >a bit of a grocery list here: Yes, we did cover some of this. Perhaps Joe Saul (who maintains the annals of the Blue Room) can point you to specific messages. Wish I could complete my novels, but after retirement and a heart attack, it is not easy. I may still do one. [Moderator's Note: I can send you back messages Ian. Let me know. Chris ] >1) Was this calamity due to unforeseen scientific/technical side-effects (i.e. >stresses caused by the 3-Light drive)? Was it due to a weapon of some kind? >Was it caused by "divine intervention" (i.e. the interdimensional beings that >act as gods on Tekumel)? It is rumoured (by the scientists of Humanspace) that the calamity was due to a dimension-altering weapon. This would be along the lines of the smaller and more portable "Interfogulators" that allow limited items to be scrambled and sent to other Planes. Consult Lord Sanjesh hiKirisaya of the city of Usenanu for details. He has a collection of Interfogulators going back to the A3 model. He'd be very grateful if somebody could find him an A2 or even the extremely rare A1. The difference between the Interfogulator and the tremendously powerful "sun-shifter" seems to be scale and intensity. The "sun-shifter" uses the apparently infinite number of small "pocket Planes" and makes it next to impossible to breach them or find one's way back. There is said to be at least one clue to getting back to Humanspace again on various planets in each pocket Dimension; my playing groups have tried to find this for 25 years, and no has come close. >2) If the result was due to divine intervention, are there similar "gods" on >planets existing in other pocket dimensions? Or, perhaps, do these *same* >gods >from Tekumel exist in more than one pocket dimension? Your theory is as good as mine. Divine intervention is not necessary, however; there are enough hostile and powerful species on Tekumel (and other planets) to do the job. >3) Do humans exist in other pocket dimensions? Oh, yes. Also all kinds of creatures, some of which are quite horrid, others beautiful, and some just ugly. >4) When mages and priests of Tekumel draw upon the energies from "other planes >of existence", are they in actuality drawin it from other pocket dimensions? No, the priests of Belkhanu claim that *raw* power is drawn from the spaces between the Planes. You can't get through the Bubble-skin of Reality just to pull power out. You can *transfer* in or out with an appropriate nexus point, but you can't communicate or utilise materials from another Plane unless you go there and get them. >Are the summoned beings merely other hapless creatures that exist on planets >that have been trapped in similar pocket dimensions? Can humans from Tekumel >similarly be summoned to other planets in other pockets? Some are indeed the descendants of trapped (I don't know about "hapless") entities. Others are native to those Planes. >5) Are the Mihalli, with their apparently inherent extra-dimensional powers, >capable of escaping the pocket dimension in which Tekumel is enclosed? They can, but they do not seem to have got past the Pylons, the great barrier in other-dimensional space that blocks travel to Humanspace. They also do not seem to want to make such a voyage since this would deprive them of much of their power -- the "Skin of Reality" has to be quite thin for most magic to work, and our universe apparently has a skin like that of a bull Chlen! >Ding-dang it, one last question regarding the pocket dimensions: > >6) Are the "gods" of Tekumel trapped within the pocket dimension as well? No. They exist on a lot of Planes and even have a few outposts in Humanspace. So it is said -- but then no one can rely too heavily on the whispers the priests of Ksarul. Regards, Phil ----- //624 [Moderator's Note: Ian Atkinson asks about scribes and their use. ] >Is there a Tsolyani equivalent of shorthand? >If not, how do secretaries take dictation? >Surely it couldn't be that people (even nobles) all write their own >letters. Hardly any noble or upperrclass person writes his/her own letters. Scribes abound. There is no equivalent of shorthand, but there is a cursive form of the Tsolyani script that is used for "speed." Scribes' take dictation the same way they have done throughout the ages -- slowly and with many mistakes until they become really skilled at their art. Regards, Phil ----- //625 [Moderator's Note: John Smith asks about the Yan Koryani script. ] >I was looking at the Yan Koryani script the other day and realised just >how blocky, slow, and awkward it must be to write with a pen. It really >is more suited to printing than writing. I seem to recall that it is >supposed to resemble Llyani, which is supposedly based on the scripts of >the Ancients, so this makes sence historically. >All of which makes me wonder if there is a *cursive* form of Yan >Koryani? Even if Tekumelyani cultures are not very interested in >economy of time and effort, it would seem to make sense that the scribes >would have a "quick" form for taking dictation, memos, etc. The scribal >clans would probably keep the keys to this a secret, except maybe from >the Surgeth. Alternately, it could be that EVERY scribal clan, temple >and secret service has it's own mutually-unintelligible shorthand! This >would help account for the difficulties the Baron has had uniting the >country: nobody can read anybody else's records. >This is not without parallel. Chinese had at least one shorthand used >by scholars, and another used by court clerks to record testimony. Both >of these must be learned separately from the more formal characters of >the regular script. >True, as long as they are all writing down the same language >decipherment would be relatively easy, but it would still be a headache. >So, is there a cursive Yan Kor script? If not, I may have to try my >hand at making one, this sort of thing being a hobby of mine. There is no "Yan Koryani shorthand" per se. The Yan Koryani do have a form of their script used for handwriting, however. The letters are modified so that just the crucial and distinguishing part of the letter-shape is written: e.g. a little square box (or even an oval!) for a thick-walled hollow square. This is not a secret script but one that is taught in Yan Koryani schools. The ciphers the Surgeth uses are different -- I'm told since I am not permitted to learn them! Regards, Phil ----- //626 [Moderator's Note: The Professor is asked about the Mayan Language and its ] [ survival through the Cataclysm to impact Tekumel. ] >From the history of Pre-Darkness Tekumel, the inclusion of Arabic and Tamil >makes reasonable sense. However, how in the world did a dead language like >Mayan get thrown into the mix? Mayan is fairly prominent as seen from such >words as "sakbe" which is certainly from the Mayan word "sacbeob", which >means a raised road. So why was a dead language resurrected? Mayan is bot a "dead language," About half a million speak one or another Maya language in Yucatan, Chiapas, Guatemala, and Honduras. I think my estimate is really low. What *died* was the knowledge of writing the glyphs: the Spaniards saw to that. Mayan languages continue to be spoken and are on the rise today. By the time Armageddon is over and the radiation levels are down, the Maya have spread all over Central America and Mexico. They joined with the other mentioned ethnic groups from across the ocean to build the Greatest Glory -- the one-world empire that eventually sent missions to the planets and then to the stars. Regards, Phil ----- //627 [Moderator's Note: Eric Johnson-DeBauffre asks about the Legion of Kaikama ] [ and the breakdown sexual preferences of the members. ] >Eric Johnson-DeBaufre asks the following >Although I have been avidly following the interesting and frequently >erudite posts to this group for a long time, this is my first personal >contribution so please bear with me. >Having recently received copies of the two S&G reprints, I immediately >plunged into reading about the fascinating world that Professor Barker >has created (or should I say "discovered"?). While I knew about Tekumel's >existence for a long time, my exposure to the details of the world was >limited to my reading of the first novel, _Man of Gold_, and to lurking >as a member of this group. While this was and still is a satisfying way >of enjoying Tekumel, I found myself wanting to know more about this rich >and complex world, to explore some of its mysteries for myself rather than >to receive all of my information second-hand. So, I broke down and finally >bought the first two books, the first of many such purchases I am sure. >But on to my point. While reading about Tekumelani (is that right?) sexual [Moderator's Note: Yes, you are right. ] >mores, I hit a bit of a snag that I am hoping someone can help me to resolve. >In _Deeds of the Ever Glorious_, Prof. Barker, describing the Legion of >Kaikama, writes that "its general, Lord Kaikama hi Mrachiyaku, of the White >Stone Clan, is a brilliant young homosexual, and many of his staff officers >are also of this sexual persuasion" (Deeds 57). However, the first S&G book >says that "the Tsolyani, who love to put things into neatly visible categories, >even have army legions composed _solely_ of homosexuals: e.g., the Legion of >Kaikama..." (69) [emphasis mine]. The second statement (the "solely" one) is a bit of an overstated generality. Kaikama's staff is largely composed of homosexuals, but there are many "straights" with him as well. I have a tendency to categorise things into blacks-or-whites, yes-or-no, statements. His chief officers, some of his junior officers, and the majority of his men and women soldiers are indeed gay, but others are not. I can't give an exact percentage but figure it is somewhere near 70-30. >Does the statement in one or the other of these sources reflect a change in >the Professor's understanding of the composition of the Legion of Kaikama, >or is the statement in _Deeds_ meant to be read as expressing the point of >view of a native Tsolyani who, while doing his level best to exhibit that >meritorious Tsolyani ideal of tolerance, is nevertheless still captive to >his own heterosexual leanings and thus incapable of admitting that an >entire legion of homosexuals exists? Neither. Just me being lazy and making a broad generality where more thought was needed! >Given the seriousness with which the Tsolyani embrace tolerance, I doubt >that it's the latter, but can anyone help me out? Thanks for listening. >Eric Johnson-DeBaufre Regards, Phil ----- //628 Greetings my friends. I have been working during my vacation on the ftp site a bit. I have repackaged Engsvan hla Ganga as a PDF. I have also done the same with the Ksamanduish article. The only one left to do is the Hnalla article. I will tackle it later this week. There are some serious font issues to contend with in that article. The others articles had less serious issues. I have also recreated the Create a Religion article in bigger type, and with a left margin, as one list member informed me that his printer chopped off the 1st character of every line. It is now a 23 page article, and a bit easier on the eyes (because of the larger font). I am in the process of converting all the 2.1 PDFs to 3.0 pdfs, for consis- tency. Be sure to upgrade your Acrobat Readers. We'll soon have a new netbook on the site. I just have to work out where the shareware registrations will go. The title is "The Tsolyani Primer" and was written by Curtis Scott. We have specific approval for this reprint from Curtis' wife, and we thank her for that. It is a wonderful labor and would be greatly missed if we could not have reprinted it. It consists of 17 lessons stressing basic Tsolyani Language. It is a wonderful aid in learning to speak Tsolyani. A moment on the Netbook topic. I maintain and monitor my ftp logs, and I know that people are downloading netbooks at a fairly regular pace. The number of registrations has dried up to nothing. (Joe, I just sent yours to the prof, so you should the cancelled check soon.) I have had about 3 registrations in the past 4 to 6 months. If you have downloaded any net- book and not registered, please do so. I take none of the money. It all goes to the Professor. It has been great for me to provide this service to all of you. I had no idea that there would be 260 people on the list. We come from 15 countries. Those countries are as follows: Australia, Belgium, Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, New Zealand, Portugal, Sweden, United Kingdom, and United States. Thanks for all your input over the years. Chris ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //629 [Moderator's Note: Some Mitlanyal news from Bob Alberti. We'll have to see ] [ if a contract is forthcoming. Let us know Bob. Sorry ] [ for the relative quiet these past few days. Been in bed ] [ under the weather. I hope to have the new netbook up ] [ later today. ] Today TOME called and verbally expressed an intent to proceed with the publication of Mitlanyal, probably in two volumes. Of course, nothing is firm until a letter of intent or contract is signed by all parties. But I thought this being the last day they had to decide, that readers would be curious. It looks like it's a "go." ----- //630 [Moderator's Note: James Eckman writes about Ditlana. The Tsolyani Primer ] [ netbook is now up and available for downloading! ] As a form of small scale Ditlana, the Japanese rebuild the shrine at Ise on a periodic basis as a form of ritual cleansing. I'm unfamilar with the Mayan examples cited, but from my poor understanding of Mayan culture many of the cities functioned primarily as centers of worship. Perhaps early Tsolyanu post-holocaust cities were of a similar nature? -----