These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000. A large portion of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain from sharing this data with non list members. When the list ended, it was urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it seemed like a good idea all around. I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site. Many Thanks. Chris Davis Moderator: Blue Room mailing list Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND BLUE ROOM ARCHIVE -- VOLUME 19 541: Legion Affiliation Reply 542: North of Ru Reply 543: The People of Tekumel 544: Miscellaneous Questions 545: Physiological/Language Questions 546: Chlen Hide 547: Chlen Hide Response 548: Chlen Hide Reply 549: Legion HQ Locations 550: Time Displacement 551: Destruction 552: 3-Light Drive 553: Life Expectancy 554: Miscellaneous Questions 555: Game Stuff Spotted 556: Ditlana 557: EPT Review 558: More Legion HQs 559: Inventions and Their Impact 560: More on Destruction 561: 3-Light Drive, Chlen Hide, and Tekumel's Sun 562: More on Chlen Hide 563: Ditlana Response 564: Tekumel on Vulcan? 565: Weapon Design 566: Empires of the Ancients 567: Current Events 568: The Great Cataclysm 569: Shrines and Temples 570: Semaphores ******************************* //541 [Moderator's Note: The Professor responds to Eric's message on the Religious] [ Affiliation of Legions. ] It is interesting that you have chosen to group the Tsolyani legions according to their *religious* affiliations. I never did this, nor, to my uncertain knowledge, did anybody else. This categorisation doesn't really produce as much as it would appear, however. A legion's commander may worship one god or another, but the majority of his/her troops may belong to several temples with only somewhat of a tendency to follow the same deity as their commander. In the unaffiliated legions there may be no single preponderance of one sect or another. Only legions devoted to Sarku/Durritlamish, to Vimuhla/Chiteng, and to Karakan/Chegarra make any real effort to enlist only their own worshippers/followers. Legion affiliation is largely economic: temples, clans, and the Imperium fund legions. Officer and staff posts are prize plums for wealthy supporters of a particular deity or political agenda. A legion generalled by a Karakan worshipper tends to attract clansmen who worship Karakan/Chegarra. In times of trouble the legion will likely support interests that are favourable to its political/religious outlook: e.g. Prince Eselne, during the current civil war. But there are exceptions: e.g. the Durritlamish legion of Sokatis. The Governor of that city despises Dhich'une and has ordered his troops into battle -- like it or not -- on the side of Prince Rereshqala. Most of these soldiers fought well for their unlikely supreme commander, although a few of the more religious Durritlamish followers refused. These "conscientious objectors" were allowed to remain in camp, guarding the baggage. They did not suffer otherwise. > Being a new member of the Blue Room, I wanted to see if I >could add something to the general knowledge base or at least spark >some discussion. I decided to base my input on one of my favorite >documents, the Deeds of the Ever-Glorious. Having read the document >at least a dozen times, I felt that there was an imbalance between >those legions who were directly affiliated with the Gods of Stability >and those directly affiliated with the Gods of Change. What I have >attempted to do is break down the predominantly Human/Nluss legions >by religious affiliation. I hope the list will be useful as a reference. > > Below is a breakdown of the 70 Human/Nluss legions by religious >affiliation. I have not included the Omnipotent Azure Legion or the >Legion of Ketl due to their specialized functions. The list groups >each God with his Cohort and also lists the number of military cohorts >(at the time of the printing of Deeds/Armies of Tekumel Vol. I - pre-war) >directly affiliated with the God/Cohort. > >Gods/Cohorts of Stability: 16 Legions, 223 Cohorts >Hnalla: (40) > The Legion of Hnalla, Master of Light; 4th Heavy Infantry (20) > The Legion of the Joyful Clan of Noble Vrayani; 3rd Slingers (20) > >Belkanu/Qon: (22) > The Legion of the Clan of the Golden Sphere; 13th Medium Infantry (14) > The Legion of the Defense Against Evil; 27th Medium Infantry (8) > >Thumis/Ketengkhu: (20) > The Legion of the Lord of Wisdom; 22nd Heavy Infantry (20) > >Avanthe/Dilinala: (29) > The Legion of Morusai the Chieftain; 40th Medium Infantry (8) > The Legion of the Twelve Paths of Avanthe; 9th Slingers (9) > The Legion of the Sapphire Kirtle; 12th Light Infantry (12) > >Karakan/Chegarra: (112) > The Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire; 14th Heavy Infantry (20) > The Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il; 10th Medium Infantry (17) > The Golden Sunburst legion; 11th Medium Infantry (17) > The Cohorts of Chegarra, the Hero King; 12th Medium Infantry (15) > The Battalions of Sryma of Vra; 39th Medium Infantry (11) > The Legion of Lord Kharihaya; 14th Crossbow (18) > The Legion of the Inverted Hand; 27th Light Infantry (15) > Legion of the Wind of Iron; 10th Crossbow (9) > >Gods/Cohorts of Change: 24 Legions, 269 Cohorts >Hruu/Wuru: (28) > The Legion of the Clan of the Sweet Singers of Nakome; > 12th Heavy Infantry (16) > The Legion of the Deep Purple Dark; 16th Heavy Infantry (3) > The Legion of the Many-Legged Serpent; 20th Medium Infantry (9) > >Sarku/Durritlamish: (80) > The Legion of the Scales of Brown; 9th Heavy Infantry (16) > The Phalanx of Lord Durritlamish of the Rotted Face; > 6th Medium Infantry (16) > The Battalions of the Seal of the Worm; 9th Medium Infantry (15) >The Armored Vision of Death; 29th Medium Infantry (7) > The Legion of the Peaks of Kraa; 12th Archers (8) > The Battalions of Vrishtara the Mole; 2nd Sappers (18) > > > >Ksarul/Gruganu: (40) > The Legion of Heketh of Purdimal; 17th Heavy Infantry (18) > The Legion of the Night of Shadows; 15th Medium Infantry (7) > The Legion of the Prince of the Blue Room; 35th Medium Infantry (9) > The Regiment of the Knower of Spells; 5th Crossbow (6) > >Dark Trinity: (13) > The Slayers of Cities; 5th Sappers (13) > >Dlamelish/Hrihayal: (8+) > The Legion of Kaikama of Bey Su; 36th Medium Infantry (8) > The Legion of the Translucent Emerald; ?? Heavy Infantry (??) > >Vimuhla/Chiteng: (100) > The Legion of the Givers of Sorrow; 8th Heavy Infantry (16) > The Legion of the Searing Flame; 10th Heavy Infantry (16) > The Legion of Lord Kurukaa; 25th Heavy Infantry (6) > The Legion of the Lord of Red Devastation; 18th Medium Infantry (17) >The Legion of Storm of Fire; 21st Medium Infantry (9) > The Legion of the Clan of the Broken Bough; 19th Archers (15) > The Legion of Glorious Destiny; 9th Crossbow (16) > The Legion of the Citadel of Glory; 13th Crossbow (5) > > >Unaffiliated Legions: 30 > Of the unaffiliated Legions; >13 have commanders who worship Stability Gods > 03 have commanders that worship Change Gods > 14 have no clear affiliation > > The balance between Stability and Change is further muddied >by the composition of the unaffiliated legions. If you assume that >the Legions follow the broad beliefs (Stability/Change) of the >commanding officers, then the balance of Light and Dark balances out, >roughly 29 Light, 27 Dark. If you don't make that assumption and >instead the unaffiliated legions are opened to all faiths, then the >Stability/Change numbers are 16 to 24, a decided advantage to Change. >Currently the legions affiliated with stability tend to be larger then >the legions of change. Part of the imbalance is probably due to the >massive increase in Sarku legions/cohorts due to Dichiune. However, >raw numbers don't give you any idea of the actual strength of the >religiously affiliated legions. For example one Karakan Legion, the >14th Heavy Infantry - Serqu, Sword of the Empire, could mop the field >against all three Hruu/Wuru legions (depending on battle magic and use >of special weapons). Your list of legions is well done. Only a few of the legions are really motivated by religious tenets, however, although some may follow a charismatic commander into battle on the side he/she supports. It is anything but black or white: waffling, treachery, changes of mind, etc. etc. all play constant roles. > I would be interested in getting a feel for the general >affiliation (Stability/Change) of the unaffiliated legions. If possible, >it would be nice to see which legions have sided with each candidate for >the throne. Finally, is there any way to update Deeds to reflect the >recent conflict? Updating Deeds would require another major project! Bob Alberti has just finished "Mitlanyal," the book of the deities of Pavar. I don't think he is prepared to write another book just yet! > Interesting sidelines; look at the representation of >Sarku/Durritlamish vs. Belkanu/Qon (6 vs. 2) and Thumis/Ketengkhu vs. >Ksarul/Gruganu (1 vs. 4). Quite so. The new militarism of the Sarku team is due to Emperor Dhich'une's recent urgent need for troops supporting his claim to the Petal Throne. Belkhanu and Thumis are traditionally non-military in orientation, as is Ksarul/Gruganu. In this latter case, the Ksarul legions are perhaps somewhat of an historical accident: they arise from various causes that now no longer apply, but the legions continue to exist. I realise that some "wargamer" members of the list out there would like to see a more balanced roster, so as to give Stability a chance to win a war with Change, but this is not really the way things work in Tsolyanu. Legion allegiances depend upon regional, clan, historical, and economic factors that are quite complex. It's very hard to generalise! Regards, Phil ----- //542 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to Brendan Knox's request for ] [ information about the area north of Ru. ] >I'm currently running a game north of Ru, Hundranu Rise region. Has anyone >been here before? I myself haven't managed to visit this region of the >Empire. What kind of landscape, people, produce etc. did others encounter? >Was there a leaning to any one particular diety? Just north of Hundranu Rise, on the Sokatis side (west, in a little "bay" of agricultural land under the frowning mountains of the Chayengar Range and Tlani Hidallu Peak) lies the little valley of Kashkomai, where one of our campaigns was set for a while. (Now the party's new characters are enjoying the hospitality of the Urunen in the south polar semi-arctic region, after a wild series of rides on the tubeways! They nearly starved for lack of food -- and worse, they almost died for lack of water on the cars. The Salarvyani (eastern) area near Ru is hilly, with fields and copses interspersed with stands of larger trees. North, toward Hundranu Rise, the hills become a little higher and less easy to travel, until one reaches the top of the low pass that exists between Hundranu Rise and the Gilraya Forest to the southwest of Ru. These forests are quite dense, and there are many animals and "critters" in them. The trees in general are deciduous (Gapul, Daichu, etc.), with occasional small, hardy peasant holdings scattered here and there. South of Ru, the great Sakbe Road runs down to neighbouring Mmilaka, which is a western Salarvyani city par excellence. The countryside is filled with villages, small towns, farms and grazing for meat-animals. The great city of Koyluga to the southeast consumes much of this produce, and some goes also to Khum (hex 2827 of the Zocchi map). If your party is north of Hundranu Rise, they'll encounter some sheer precipices and dizzy climbs around Tlani Hidallu Peak. There are Ssu up there, it is rumoured. The vegetation tends towards dense stands of black-needled Tiu-trees, which look rather like evergreens. Higher up, the summits of these peaks are bare or only sparsely covered with high-mountain undergrowth. The lower slopes of neighbouring Kakri Midallu Peak is inhabited by hardy, suspicious, and courageous farmers -- the region is invaded, raided, and terrorised constantly by groups of Ssu, who have become bolder in recent years. The peaks of the Chayengar Range are higher and wilder yet. The Salarvyani are devoted to Lady Shiringgayi, of course, while the Tsolyani have no single religious affiliation in these parts. Don't take anybody up there who doesn't have a skill in climbing and mountaineering! The place is pretty lethal. Regards, Phil ----- //543 [Moderator's Note: Joe Pizzirusso asks about the people of Tekumel. ] >I understand that the humans who went into space were made up in a >large part by the descendants of the people of central america, and >were heavily influenced by these cultures. Now these cultures, back in >the pre-european times, had a strong mythology around animal/human >shapeshifters. Shamens would often, with the help of herbal medecines, >transform into jaguars, go onto spirit journeys etc. THe were-jaguar, >and other were creatures were central to many beliefs. Seems like most >other human cultures also had some sort of lycanthopy in their myths. Central America, parts of India, and a region on the Arabian peninsula escaped the total destruction of today's world that will occur in the year 2,012-3. Sixty thousand (plus or minus) years passed before humankind returned to space. A great many cultures, traditions, religious beliefs, etc. rose, flowered, and died during all that time. Compare the changes (cultural, linguistic, etc.) that have come about even in the last 500 years here on Terra, and then extend the time-depth to 60,000 years plus! This is why there is so little carry-over from the civilisations of this present-day world. More time passed before Tekumel was settled as a sort of "resort-planet," and more still before the Time of Darkness occurred. >So...did this carry to Tekumel? Do certain peoples have myths, >legends, stories, etc concerning lycanthropy? Or did humanity evolve >so much that these were all discarded before settling Tekumel? Or did >the folks who survived all this time decide that they had enough to >REALLY fear with the critters that abound to have time to bother with >children's myths. (gee...and how would you tie in the full moon(s)? >One set of beasties for one full moon, one for the other, and a third >really scary set for both?) One of the greatest Shaman-specific spells is that of changing into a totem animal; cf. the "Swords and Glory"" rulebook, as well as "Gardasiyal." The temple of Dlamelish, which specialises in physical appearances, also has some shape-shifting powers. There are also the Mihalli, a nonhuman race described in the "Bestiary," which change shapes easily. The average citizen is usually aware of these things through stories, rumours, temple education, old wives' tales, and other such media. Your idea about creatures affected by the two moons is entertaining. May be we could have "green" species (e.g. various lizards) affected by Gayel and "red" species (e.g. certain insects, dogs with red fur, etc.?) ensorcelled by Kashi. >deep enough. Even the "magic" is rationally explained as shaped >energy, as are the pwerful magic items, the fearsome magical creatures >and so on. No hocus-pocus really. SO...am I correct in feeling that >there is a lower level of superstition? of fears based on guesswork >around the cooking fire? Are the enemies of man, and the existing >undead, and the knowledge that certain temples build undead like you >and I would build a set of shelves (that is uneavenly and somewhat >rickety ;-) ) enough to make it so that the average people do not >believe in things such as ghosts? either as "real" disembodied things >that may be restless for a reason, or returning to punish someone, or >just as a psychic phenomemon? Are you either safely off to the island >of the dead, or a Sarku-built undead? There are indeed superstitions on Tekumel: many, many layers of regional, historical, and religious variants. Only a small percentage of the populace is "educated" at all, and much of the learning they receive is fragmentary, partial, and just plain erroneous. Villagers and farmers are less sophisticated than urban dwellers, and their superstitions are thus different. The villagers have endless supplies of "ghosts" and "monsters," and in some areas (e.g. the Kraa Hills) people don't go out after dark for fear of the spooks! Average *educated* people take their temples' word for the non-existence of beings who cannot be proved to be extensions from the Planes Beyond. There are very few real "theologically-oriented" beings here: ghosts, goblins, devils, and what-have-you. The priests provide examples of *existing* and *proveable* creatures and pooh-pooh those created by lower-class illiterate superstitions. This doesn't stop granny from holding forth on the terrors of the Nighted One of Old Bones (perhaps a faint memory of the Goddess of the Pale Bone?). >It just seems to me that it would take a lot to remove these >archetypes from the human racial memory (if you buy into that sort of >thing). Seems like we'd still have some sort of gut-fear of >shapeshifters, dead things we couldn't explain, even things (dare I >say the V-word) that live off the life energy or blood of the living. >Does it come down to the fact that one purpose of Tekumel was to make >sure it was truly alien, and that adding a vampire critter etc, would >simply damage the feel that the Professor was trying to create? (if so >this is a perfectly fine reason to say, that this is the way it is, >and thats that.) Some of the superstitious folk do indeed hold such beliefs, but the existence of "real" (though non-theological) gods, plus the all pervasive teachings of the temples, tend to reduce the population of ghosts and things that go boomp in the night considerably. Vampires and similar eastern European boogiemen are simply too far back in Tekumel's history to have carried forward, although modern-day Tsolyani do have various ideas that are vaguely similar. This was not really my motive in excluding vampires, frankenstein monsters, and other modern bugaboos; I felt that such a span of history would certainly completely change the corpus of human belief, creating some similar things but doing away with much. Some of the Tsolyani ideas about the Undead, for example, border on superstition, while others are busily put about by the priesthoods of Sarku and Durritlamish. Interesting. Regards, Phil ----- //544 [Moderator's Note: Nuno Flavio asks numerous questions on various topics. ] >I recently obtained copies of Tekumel's Sourcebooks 1 & 2 and "The Eye" >3,5 and 6 (besides the 2 novels you sent me) >While reading them, many questions were answered but many more >were raised. Most are about pre-cataclism Tekumel and humanspace >They are not directly related with Present Tekumel, but i am very curious >about the (very) remote past of the planet and the civilization that >colonized it ? I have never gone deeply into detail concerning the pre-Time of Darkness eras of Tekumel's history. The general outlines published in the Sourcebook are all too general, and writing up each dynasty and political event would be a task to daunt the editors of the Encyclopaedia Brittanica! I have always assumed that when humankind got out into space, they met the Pe Choi (who have been watching our progress for millennia -- flying saucers anyone?). To the first human explorers the Pe Choi are reported to have said, "What took you so long?" The Pe Choi subsequently gave their Three-Light Drive to the humans and aided them in colonising various worlds, one of which was Tekumel. This meant the extermination and displacement of the Hluss and the Ssu. Humankind's allies, trading partners, etc. then arrived, and the planet was terraformed and turned into a large-scale resort planet for wealthy adventurers and entrepreneurs. The rest you know. >1 - If an Aridani woman can become "normal" anytime she wants, and a "good >clan girl" can declare herself Aridani when she wills it, what's there to >stop unscrupulous women from manipulating the system ? (ie: a non-Aridani >declares herself Aridani to divorce her husband, and after that turns >"normal" again to enjoy the protection of the clan again). Legally this is possible. It would not sit well with her clan, however, nor with her temple. Keeping good relations in a tightly grouped and stratified society makes it almost impossible to "rebel" as many European and American adolescents seem to do. A "rebel's" clan can put pressures on such a person easily, effortlessly, and with unpleasant effects. There need be no violence, of course: remove the offender's money accounts from the clan's records, boycott her business(es), deny her social access to clan events, and bring her in for a public reprimand -- any and all of these -- and even the toughest rebel may have trouble resisting. Such women then usually surrender -- or go off to become soldiers in Lady Mrissa's legion, into a temple to become a priestess, into one of the bureaucracies to live as "old-maid" administrators, etc. >2 - Who was the "Veritable Autocrator" ? Sounds like a religious leader. Hmm. Where did you find this title? I don't recall including it...? >2.1 - Speaking of Religious leaders, are the Humanspace major religions >(if any) known ? No. I never detailed them, but I always rather assumed that they would be similar to other religions developed by Humankind over the millennia, and also that there would be a good percentage of "scientfic agnostics" and atheists in the mix. >3 - The "eyes". Were they only built during the time of darkness and the >latter times or was there some sort of similar artifacts before? >I am a little confused because the Eyes are treated has technological >artifacts but use "magical" energy. Eyes date from before the end of the pre-Time-of-Darkness era right on through much of the Latter Times. It is said that there are a few people today who can use ancient matrices to create new Eyes, but this remains unproved -- and *very* secret, if so. In the first game (EPT), I allowed this to occur more often than it really does in order to give players something to strive for. The energy used by Eyes is not "magical" in the strict sense; it is Other Planar energy, drawn through the thin skin of reality on Tekumel, then moulded and shaped and released by "spells," which are mind-sets (Gestalts, in German) that one learns in the temple schools. An Eye is thus just a totally devoted and focussed device that can draw Other Planar power and fire it. >4 - Did "magic" existed in any form in the golden age before the cataclism >? Were Psionics "real" in humanspace ? As noted above, there was a growing dependence upon Other Planar power that began in the pre-Time-of-Darkness periods and continued to grow during the Latter Times. The great cataclysms and the decline of technology slowly put an end to the production of new devices. During the last millennia of the Latter Times some very odd Eyes were created, and it became a mark of scholarly and scientific skill to create really delicate and finely tuned mechanisms: e.g. the "Eye of Absolute Depilation," which removes all body hair except for that on the head. For some reason this "barber tool" strips an Ahoggya of his outer skin layers and enrages him. Pe Choi are unaffected, as are Ssu, Hluss, and some other species. >Did the Pe Choi and other nonhuman races had any of their current psychic >powers before Tekumel was hurled into the pocket universe ? I believe they did. >5 - In Tekumel Sourcebook 1 it is stated that in the century after >Tekumel fell into the pocket dimension, the same fate befell 722 >humanspace systems. In enterview to "The Eye" Prof. Barker says he knows >about a dozen of those worlds or so. Does he have some written material on >them, or is such material avayable anyware ? Alas, I have never written up these worlds. Would anyone like to try? Since they have so little to do with Tekumelani culture, it would be quite feasible for someone else to develop them. >6 - Was the N'luss ethnic group born in post-cataclism Tekumel or did they >appeared in Humanspace ? Were blond people also rare (or >non-existant) in Humanspace ? The N'luss appeared during the pre-Time-of-Darkness era. They appear to have been a genetic/ethnic group of humans who had escaped the great cataclysm in 2012 that destroyed much of Terra's populations. >7 - Did Prof. Barker ever elaborate on how the 3-light-drive and the >FTL technology worked ? Can you tell me the average speed or travel-time >of a spaceship ? Not a clue. I am not a technician! In fact I can barely use this computer. You'll have to inquire from one of the Pe Choi. >8 - From what i have gathered humanspace robotics was so advanced trully >"human" automata could be built (many are difficult to tell from real >humans). How perfect was (is) their artificial intelligence ? Were they >tought of has "living" beeings ? Did they had any rights before the law ? A whole bag of difficult questions, Nunio! Yes, human-appearing automata were not uncommon as "rich man's servants" on pre-Time-of-Darkness Tekumel. Their artificial intelligence(s) were quite advanced, and in some cases much more developed than humans' -- try playing chess with one of the Class VII house robots, but don't wager any money! Most robots had no rights under the law but were "property." >9 - Current Tekumelian languages come originaly from the "High Stellar"(?) >(a maian-arabic language) lingua Franca of Humanspace. Has the Professor >ever developed this language ? Is there any sort of Grammary or Primer for >it ? Never got the time or energy to develop it. THere is *so* much to do! >10 - The lifetime expectancy in Tekumel is low. >I assume Humanspace didn't use it's highly advanced genetic science (it >was VERY advanced because many creatures of Tekumel are artificial) to >increase it. Why is that ? During the pre-Time-of-Darkness period, many old Earth diseases were cured or at least reduced considerably. Syphillis, Aids, plague, cholera, typhus-typhoid, etc. were almost eliminated, and various ailments from the Non-Human worlds were also controlled or eradicated. A few worlds with *really* lethal diseases had to be interdicted and treated as "off limits." Ancient fears of infection are still rampant in many places. Genetic science was indeed very advanced during the pre-Time-of-Darkness era. This carried over into the Latter Times, when various warlords created certain creatures and species just for their own amusement, as bodyguards, as private armies, etc. Sometimes they adapted a spcies from some other world; sometimes they used vats of "materials" to create creatures after models developed by their scientists. Some of these became *very* strange indeed, and most of these "experiments" have since perished or reverted to earlier forms. >11 - Are the causes for the 21st century atomic armaggedon known ? Who >shot first ? :) It seems that somebody living in the present day welter of states that comprised the Soviet Union managed to steal nuclear warheads and technology. The Russians tried to stop the firing of these missiles, but they failed, and a whole flight of very powerful nuclear warheads landed squarely on north America -- which then fired back from bases overseas and on ships -- which then led to clouds of radioactive "dirty" material falling all over the world from one end to the other. Only the prevailing winds and a couple of historical accidents managed to save certain areas from contamination. >11.2 - Were any, yet undiscovered (or unrevealed by our governments) >weapons used in the war ? Oh, yes. Regards, Phil ----- //545 [Moderator's Note: Sorry for the long delay recently. We have recently wel-] [ comed 7 new people to the list, and our total membership ] [ has broken 250 members. Sorry for the quiet Phil. ] [ Paul Roser asks about the physiological impacts on ] [ Language, and just general physiology of non-humans. ] >Are the 'gut rumblings' and 'vibrating air intake' of the Ahoggya >initiatory mechanisms (similar to the pulmonic vs glottalic mechanisms in >human speech) or something else? To my uncertain knowledge, no one has ever analysed the tangled internal workings of an Ahoggya. The Imperial Commission established by Emperor Durumu, "The Copper Blade of Sarku," (1,747-1,809 A.S.) that decided that these creatures are "animals," rather than "rational beings." Their "gut rumblings" were likened to the sounds of Chlen-beasts in heat. Ahoggya have various sets of "lungs" and several other organs, the functions of which are unknown. The Llivyani are perhaps the best "internal medicine specialists" in the Five Empires; they even have a fairly accurate idea about the circulation of the blood. This is not totally accepted by other nations, however. The Tsolyani are fairly good at practical surgery, even trepanning and the removal of brain tumours. The Mu'ugalavyani are the best military surgeons, but treating with pills and drugs is considered a bit "non-noble." They are thus only passable physicians when it comes to internal medicine. Magic works in most locales, of course, but it is much more common in the games based on Tekumel than in "Tekumel-reality" itself. It seemed good to allow player characters access to "instant healing," rather than slow down the progress of an adventure by compelling "wounded" characters to stay in bed for months or weeks! Healing and Alleviation spells are indeed fairly common in the temple schools, but high-level enchantments like Revivification are quite rare. Parties have often run into "barren" regions where "magic" (i.e. the drawing and shaping of Other Planar power) does *not* work, and then wounds fester and kill, just as they did in Terran cultures up to the 20th Century (cf. the "surgeon's tents" in American Civil War history!). Recovery on Tekumel is a matter of sanitation, the victim's stamina, rest -- and a low-ish dice roll. > What sorts of different (ie not available or similar to human) >mechanisms are found in the Hlaka, Pygmy Folk and Pachi Lei, that you are >aware of? I seem to recall references to the Pygmy Folk in "Flamesong" >sounding as though it had two tongues, do they, in fact? (I also imagine >the nasopharynx of a Pygmy Folk must be quite different from a human's?) The Hlaka, Pygmy Folk, and Pachi Lei have "lungs," nostrils, pulmonary in-out breathing, tongues, teeth, vocal chords, a larynx and pharynx, etc. etc., much as we do. There are differences in shape and size, of course, and these organs resonate somewhat differently than ours. The Pygmy Folk have a sort of high stutter, which is likened to "two tongues" in "Flamesong," but is really a reflex, similar, perhaps, to teeth chattering. The Hlaka speak in hisses and whistles, although they can imitate human speech with much the same skill as an educated parrot. The Pachi Lei have [Moderator's Note: I'll never be able to think of Hlaka again without think-] [ ing about a talking Parrot.... :) ] various internal body cavities that make their voices seem to echo deeply. All of these species can "speak Human," but with widely differing "accents" and control. This is really difficult to convey in a written text, such as a novel. The Tsolyani (and others) are used to these variations and tend to be lenient in trying to enforce linguistic precision on these species. > Does the crest of the Swamp Folk play a part in speech production, >rather like the way elephants use their trunks to produce subsonic sounds, >or is it more for regulating heat/body temperature? The crest of the Swamp Folk is thick, stiff, almost horny in feel, with no internal organs that I know of. It is not prehensile, nor does it "droop" or "rise" because of emotional changes. (The Shen crest does rise; it usually lies flat upon the skull but rises into a fearsome set of spikey protuberances when the individual is angry, sexually excited, etc.) The Swamp Folk crest is not used for speech but is part of each individual's honour and dignity, however: cut off the crest, and the victim soon seems to "die of shame," as they put it. > Last language-related question - do the Hlaka produce sounds rather >like birds & bats (i.e. whistles and other similar sounds)? Yes. Their language, the humans say, sounds like squeaking and whistling and is "all vowels." > I apologize to others on the list if this sort of thing seems overly >arcane, but I get a HUGE kick out of speculating about non-human >languages. (And many thanks to you, Phil, for bearing with my questions!) > Finally, two physiognomic questions: >1) Re: the Hlaka. All the illustrations of them indicate that they have >wings AND arms as separate organs, yet the bestiary implies that the two >are one structure, very similar to the wings of a bat, with additional >fingers(?). I've been very curious as to which of these images of the >Hlaka is correct. I don't know how this got through. The Hlaka indeed have *separate* wings and two arms, in addition to two feet and a prehensile tail. >2) Re: the Pe Choi. Do they have lips, or are their mandibles beak-like >(and when speaking of Pe Choi mandibles, are you referring to their jaws, >or to smaller insect-like structures within their jaws?) The Pe Choi have a chitin-like exoskeleton. They thus have no "lips," as such, but make closures with their jaw ridges, teeth, tongue, (and other organs?) which *sound* like labial consonants (i.e. /p/, /b/, /m/, /w/). They thus have a very odd-sounding "accent." After living in the Empire for some time, a Pe Choi can almost approximate human speech. Tsolyani jokesters sometimes devise "tests" to be applied to the poor Pe Choi: /mal ul pepim brumnuntik molMeku!/ "Let [him] descend in procession to Meku." I think I meant the whole Pe Choi jaw structure when describing it as "mandibles." Regards, Phil ----- //546 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff ponders numerous topics. ] Gentlemen: That was a very interesting question, concerning Chlen-hide chainmail. I've always been aware of the cultural peculiarities inherent in the very existence of the stuff; to give them an idea, my introductory players were told that it resembled grey-green fiberglass when unpainted. What the heck-- they got the idea. But it IS an organic compound, as opposed to an inorganic (animal, rather than mineral). Further, it IS used in a hot, semi- to gawdawful tropic climate. Thus: Does Chel-hide ROT? (Or stated better, how quickly -does- it rot?) The other aspect of it that always interested me was the way it competed with, or sometimes outright supplanted BRONZE. [Moderator's Note: Taken right out of the source book it says that Chlen hide] [ is bronze's equal in hardness, and is quite a bit lighter.] [ It is also fashioned into jewelry, clothing, etc. It is ] [ also a very renewable resource. You can peel your Chlen ] [ every six months or so. Beats the heck out of mining ] [ even when you can find the minerals. Phil, could you ] [ speak to the issue of does treated Chlen Hide rot? ] Now, bronze is neat-o stuff, as Hammurabi or the Beaker traders of the same period could tell you; Dr Bronowski called it 'the plastic of its age,' suitable for the making of everything from earrings to cookpots to body armor... and swords. If the choice was given to me between a bronze sword and a Chlen-hide sword, I know which one -I'd- choose... and military practicalities being the most absolute ones known, I would think that Chlen-hide swords would become useless-- er, ornamental, that is, in extremely short order. (Like, by the next battle.) Curious, that anyone is still using them at -this- late date. (You can't just say, 'Well, they don't have the metals to make bronze,' either-- that might well be true, but the hypothetical 'they' would have hides, I'd bet-- or salt, or amber, or fuggin -something- to TRADE for bronze, mucho pronto, before they get fuggin KILLED by their more on-the-ball neighbors...) Drifting slightly off the subject by way of 'military necessity,' the value of -speed- was so readily apparent to the armies of the early Bronze Age-- like Hammurabi, again, and Mursilis later on-- that the arrival of the horse, and the horse-drawn chariot, spread to everyone who ever came in contact with it, -anywhere-. "Wheels, carts and human labor were long known in China and Japan, but the jinrikisha ('rickshaw') was not thought of until the 1880s. There is simply no single, solid explanation to such 'whys'-- only theories, and in the last analysis, 'they didn't think of it.'" -- Swords and Glory, Vol 1. Are you s u r e about that? The jinrikisha -was- invented eventually, after all, when Europeans arrived and took a look around-- when one culture met another. You're saying that nobody, nowhere, nohow, in all of the nations of the known world, across twenty-five thousand years or more-- that Nobody thought of throwing some tow-ropes over the shoulders of some of those marathon-running Imperial couriers or their predecessors and rolling some light chariots with a brace of bowmen aboard into battle? That in twenty-five thousand years, a time span enough to 'evolve' timber wolves into teacup poodles and English setters, that some nation like Haida Pakala did not long ago create 'two-legged horses'? Huge and massive humanoids built for speed and endurance in the long run (as humans themselves are; paleolithics often simply ran their prey to exhaustion-- I've done it with my dog) who pull their masters' chariots not quite as fast as their terrestrial equine counterparts, perhaps, but again, can do so for vastly longer... (Though you might run the Boston Marathon, don't even -try- galloping a horse for forty-two kilometers non-stop, or even a third of that.) There's no cultural 'blind spot' against humans carrying other humans, either-- litters are everywhere. Remember, it need only happen o n c e , for the users to wipe up the battlefield and drive their enemies before them in fleeing rout-- until they themselves get some of these things, when it will be -their- turn on the NEXT people... Only once, anywhere, at any time-- for the idea, and the, ah, creatures, to spread as far and fast as did the horse-drawn chariot. You're s u r e this has somehow just never happened? [Moderator's Note: If Phil says it hasn't... It may have, but been lost in] [ tens of thousands of years of history. ] Gordon. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable. //547 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti responds to Gordon's questions about Chlen ] [ hide. ] >Thus: Does Chel-hide ROT? (Or stated better, how quickly -does- it >rot?) The methods of treatment of Chlen hide are secrets known only to the clans which work the stuff. The end result, however, is something which is impregnated with probably-poisonous compounds, largely anaerobic, and possibly even permeated with some minor preservation spell. There's little for any microbe to eat, and little reason for it to rot. >If the choice was given to me between a bronze sword and a >Chlen-hide sword, I know which one -I'd- choose... and military >practicalities being the most absolute ones known, I would think that >Chlen-hide swords would become useless-- er, ornamental, that is, in >extremely short order. (Like, by the next battle.) It's a weight/speed/mass tradeoff, isn't it? A bronze sword is 1) way more expensive in Tsolyanu, 2) lots heavier, and 3) no harder. So while a successful blow with a bronze sword might have more "oomf" behind it than a similar chlen-hide sword, the arm tires more quickly and the blade does not move as fast. And it's a lot cheaper. So for average Joes, a chlen-hide sword makes sense. For brawny player- characters, backed by unlikely dice rolls and equally-unlikely fortunes, a bronze sword might do... but then, who settles for bronze when you can have enchanted steel? > Curious, that anyone is still using them at -this- late date. > > (You can't just say, 'Well, they don't have the metals to make > bronze,' either-- that might well be true, but the hypothetical 'they' > would have hides, I'd bet-- or salt, or amber, or fuggin -something- to > TRADE for bronze, mucho pronto, before they get fuggin KILLED by their more > on-the-ball neighbors...) As good as it might be, one bronze sword is no match for twenty sweaty Salarvyani with chlen-hide swords... or even big clubs, for that matter. Unless of course you're Xena, but I don't think she'd make it to Tekumel. >You're saying that nobody, nowhere, nohow, in all of the nations of >the known world, across twenty-five thousand years or more-- that Nobody >thought of throwing some tow-ropes over the shoulders of some of those >marathon-running Imperial couriers or their predecessors and rolling some >light chariots with a brace of bowmen aboard into battle? Sure, they think of all SORTS of things! One fellow outfitted his troops with two shields, welded edge-to-edge, to make it look like he had twice as many guys as he actually had. Another fellow tried burying his soldiers under a thin layer of soil so that they could spring up in surprise. And a third tried arming his slaves. They're all dead now. Meanwhile, I have some mail for you. Here is a summons to the Palace of of the Realm to meet with representatives of the Imperial Couriers and the Blazing Sword Clan -- seems that fellow didn't like being bound to your two-wheeled contraption. Speaking of which, several clanmasters from the carter's clans are waiting outside the clanhouse to speak with you about your infringement of their occupation. Then there are some military officers waiting to speak with you about your 'innovation' which apparently violates a treaty we made with the Sa'a Allaqiani in fourth century A.S. Oh, and here's a dispatch from the Hirilakte arena - apparently you're to appear in a duel with one Adlar hiFershena, and aggrieved Imperial Courier with rope burns and one of the best swordsmen of the valley of Kashkomai... ----- //548 [Moderator's Note: The Professor replies to Gordon's message. ] >That was a very interesting question, concerning Chlen-hide >chainmail. I've always been aware of the cultural peculiarities inherent in >the very existence of the stuff; to give them an idea, my introductory >players were told that it resembled grey-green fiberglass when unpainted. >What the heck-- they got the idea. Good. Your description is very close. Chlen-hide can be thin or thick, painted, lacquered, set with gems or gold wire -- etc. As a weapon, a Chlen-hide sword is lighter than a bronze sword. It is easily replaceable, and it can be sharpened -- and thrown away when it is no longer usable. I suppose I could make an analogy and say a Chlen-hide sword is rather like a kleenex, compared with a cloth hanky (bronze), compared with a fancy, embroidered linen handkerchief (iron/steel). The latter two are better, of course, but they are expensive, hard to find (most weapon dealers don't have iron/steel blades at all, although bronze is not all that difficult to get. >But it IS an organic compound, as opposed to an inorganic (animal, >rather than mineral). Further, it IS used in a hot, semi- to gawdawful >tropic climate. > >Thus: Does Chlen-hide ROT? (Or stated better, how quickly -does- it >rot?) Chlen-hide must be treated with certain chemical agents known only to the tanners' clans. These "secrets" are respected by the clan-minded nations of the Five Empires. A number of other people know the broad outlines of the "secret," but they must act as though it is a mystery; otherwise one gets lawsuits for breaching another clan's secrets -- and heavy "Shamtla." Tanning Chlen-hide is not a high-prestige job any way -- rather like being a blacksmith in rural India, where those who handle iron come from the lower castes. >The other aspect of it that always interested me was the way it >competed with, or sometimes outright supplanted BRONZE. > >[Moderator's Note: Taken right out of the source book it says that Chlen >hide] >[ is bronze's equal in hardness, and is quite a bit >lighter.] >[ It is also fashioned into jewelry, clothing, etc. It >is ] >[ also a very renewable resource. You can peel your >Chlen ] >[ every six months or so. Beats the heck out of mining >] >[ even when you can find the minerals. Phil, could you >] >[ speak to the issue of does treated Chlen Hide rot? >] >Now, bronze is neat-o stuff, as Hammurabi or the Beaker traders of >the same period could tell you; Dr Bronowski called it 'the plastic of its >age,' suitable for the making of everything from earrings to cookpots to >body armor... and swords. Bronze is indeed useful. With some expense and difficulty, one can transport tin and copper to a smelter where bronze is made. The reason it does not replace Chlen-hide is that any farmer can "peel" his Chlen-beast, give the slab of hide to a local tanner, and get tools, weapons, etc. made from it -- easily and swiftly! The sources for copper and tin are separated by about half of the sprawling Tsolyani Empire, and slave caravans are incredibly slow. Bronze is sought after, but it could never replace Chlen-hide for economic reasons. >If the choice was given to me between a bronze sword and a >Chlen-hide sword, I know which one -I'd- choose... and military >practicalities being the most absolute ones known, I would think that >Chlen-hide swords would become useless-- er, ornamental, that is, in >extremely short order. (Like, by the next battle.) Obtaining bronze swords for the entire Tsolyani army would be a major drain on the Empire's fiscal reserves. Chlen-hide is so much easier to get; the troops like it because it is very light (which bronze is not); if you lose a bronze weapon, you are out a major number of Kaitars, and if you lost it carelessly, your superior office may flay off a little of *your* hide with his staff! Being heavier, bronze also takes more strength to wield -- the Tsolyani were never interested in *short* or simple *straight* swords; their society demands elaborate shapes and complexities. Bronze swords are thus made to resemble Chlen-hide swords; these are quite heavy, comparerd to light Chlen-hide weapons. Wielding a heavy weapon in battle (loaded with armour, etc.) is a lot less appealing than whacking away with a lighter (= faster?) Chlen-hide blade. If you lose, you can get away faster, too -- or throw down the Chlen-hide sword and flee like a rabbit with no regrets about its expense. Some of this I have tried to indicate in the various sourcebooks and novels, but it is difficult to convey, apparently, since these questions have been asked many times by many people. >Curious, that anyone is still using them at -this- late date. Not at all. Societies do not all head in the same direction, as we know well from this world. >(You can't just say, 'Well, they don't have the metals to make >bronze,' either-- that might well be true, but the hypothetical 'they' >would have hides, I'd bet-- or salt, or amber, or fuggin -something- to >TRADE for bronze, mucho pronto, before they get fuggin KILLED by their more >on-the-ball neighbors...) As said above, bronze is good and useful, but Chlen-hide is lighter, easier to obtain, cheaper, easier to work -- and can be discarded when necessary. The neighbour you mention who uses a bronze sword may have a slightly -- and that is really pretty slight -- advantage with his bronze blade, but he has to work harder to produce his bronze, requiring raw materials that may not be nearby and are not cheap; in battle he may be a little slower than his Chlen-hide-armed opponent, and on long marches, he will tire before a foe that has only to carry light Chlen-hide armour and weapons. There is also the heavy burden of tradition. >Drifting slightly off the subject by way of 'military necessity,' >the value of -speed- was so readily apparent to the armies of the early >Bronze Age-- like Hammurabi, again, and Mursilis later on-- that the >arrival of the horse, and the horse-drawn chariot, spread to everyone who >ever came in contact with it, -anywhere-. >"Wheels, carts and human labor were long known in China and Japan, >but the jinrikisha ('rickshaw') was not thought of until the 1880s. There >is simply no single, solid explanation to such 'whys'-- only theories, and >in the last analysis, 'they didn't think of it.'" -- Swords and Glory, Vol >1. > >Are you s u r e about that? The jinrikisha -was- invented >eventually, after all, when Europeans arrived and took a look around-- when >one culture met another. Again, this is culture as seen from a Western "scientific" perspective. The *Europeans* invented the ricksha, not the Chinese, the Malays, the Indians. My players keep asking why some enterprising young priest-scholar just does not combine sulphur, charcoal, and saltpetre and produce gunpowder. This, again, is a view from "hindsight." Centuries passed on Earth without gunpowder, and even the brilliant Chinese did not seem to use it very efficiently until the Europeans took it home. Nobody invented TNT either, until Nobel putzed around with chemicals and figured it out. Nor did anybody in Europe invent plastic explosive until -- I think, and I may be wrong -- after the Korean War. My point is that efficiency, better results, etc. are not sufficient causes for invention. One needs geniuses -- and the economic and social conditions beneficial to make and use the invention. The Aztecs and Maya had wheeled toys but never invented carts. (Like the Tsolyani, they had no large draft animals. Chlen-beasts are too slow to fill this role very well, although they do haul produce across long distances.) The Aztecs and the Maya also did not invent the true arch, although they built elaborate edifices and worked stone beautifully. The Old Empire Maya did not have goldwork either, although they did eventually acquire it from the Aztecs/Toltecs (etc.) to the north and/or from the peoples south of them. Gold thus largely shows up in Maya culture during the later Empire. One would think that Maya merchants would have seen the benefits of metal and have done all in their power to hire smiths, get access to metals and mines, etc. But ...? These factors can be said to be "cultural blindspots," like the Tekumelani blindness to maps: people draw *pictures* of cities, not abstract maps to scale. For a Tsolyani-style "map" of Bey Su, look at the box cover to the old EPT game. As in the Middle Ages, Tsolyani merchants can indeed draw boxes and lines, showing *abstract* "roads" and "towns": beside a line may be written "paved road, 2 days on foot, food plentiful" or "difficult mountains lie on your way here" -- etc. I realise that I can never convince a Western "scientific" mind of Tekumel realities. Please, thus, just take these statements as "given," for the purposes of the mythos. I am afraid you'll just have to love old Tekumel, warts and Alzheimers and all. >You're saying that nobody, nowhere, nohow, in all of the nations of >the known world, across twenty-five thousand years or more-- that Nobody >thought of throwing some tow-ropes over the shoulders of some of those >marathon-running Imperial couriers or their predecessors and rolling some >light chariots with a brace of bowmen aboard into battle? Wagons pulled by humans (and even lumbering Chlen-beasts) have indeed been tried. The pullers took arrowfire, and a few in the forefront would drop in the traces. The "war-wagon" would then come to a disordered halt. blocking advancing units behind.. Armouring the crew made the wagon slower and more unwieldy. Armouring the wagon like a Roman "tortoise" made the whole thing too slow for field battles and only useful for a siege. This is now the sort of cultural no-no that is automatically rejected by present-day generals. >That in twenty-five thousand years, a time span enough to 'evolve' >timber wolves into teacup poodles and English setters, that some nation >like Haida Pakala did not long ago create 'two-legged horses'? Huge and >massive humanoids built for speed and endurance in the long run (as humans >themselves are; paleolithics often simply ran their prey to exhaustion-- >I've done it with my dog) who pull their masters' chariots not quite as >fast as their terrestrial equine counterparts, perhaps, but again, can do >so for vastly longer... (Though you might run the Boston Marathon, don't >even -try- galloping a horse for forty-two kilometers non-stop, or even a >third of that.) Sounds good. Wish somebody had done it! >There's no cultural 'blind spot' against humans carrying other >humans, either-- litters are everywhere. Absolutely correct. But pulling a wagon into a hail of enemy arrows and quarrels wastes slaves and may not get you close enough for your troops to disembark and join battle. Remember that Tekumel has no "knights" with horses and better equipment than their commoner footmen. Some of the troops in the "war-wagon" are likely to be of good clans, and they would feel somewhat less than noble if they were ordered to ride into battle on a slave-pulled wagon. "Are we then Dlel-fruit or Dna-grain? Hauled to market like invalids? The foe can see us coming, riding high upon our wagons, and they target their missiles upon us.: >Only once, anywhere, at any time-- for the idea, and the, ah, >creatures, to spread as far and fast as did the horse-drawn chariot. Alas, no horses... A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse...! >You're s u r e this has somehow just never happened? Absolutely -- or at least not with enough success to made it seem important enough to pass on. Regards, Phil ----- //549 [Moderator's Note: Peter Bismire has created a list of the geographical ] [ location of all the Legion's headquarters. ] Eric's posting on the religious affiliation of Tsolyani legions has moved me to post a list I put together a while ago of the geographical locations of the legions headquarters. The list also shows the type for each unit: AH = Ahoggya AR = Artillery BW = Archers CB = Crossbow HI = Heavy infantry HL = Hlaka LI = Light infantry MI = Medium infantry MR = Marines PC = Pe Choi PL - Pachi Lei SH = Shen SL = Slingers SP = Sappers Aukesha 56 Legion of the Wind of Iron CB Avanthar 1 Omnipotent Azure Legion HI Bey Su 3 Legion of Potent Destiny HI 4 Legion of Hnalla, Master of Light HI 5 Legion of the Mighty Prince HI 6 Legion of the Portals of Death HI 14 Legion of the Ruby Hand HI 42 Legion of Kaikama of Bey Su MI 48 Regiment of the Clan of the Silver Lightning BW 64 Legion of Lord Kaingmra of Bey Su AR 72 Legion of the Splendour of Shenyu SH 71 Legion of Ketl XX Butrus 8 Legion of the Givers of Sorrow HI 78 Legion of the Forest of Hh-kk--ssa PC 82 Legion of the Tangled Root Eaters PL Chene Ho 33 Aridani Legion of Lady Mrissa MI 43 Legion of the Band of Mnerr MI 47 Legion of the Black Band of Mirizha MI 76 Legion of Tik-nekw-ket PC Fasiltum 10 Legion of the Searing Flame HI 12 Legion of the Sweet Singers of Nakome HI 50 Legion of the Clan of the Broken Bough BW Ganga 38 Legions of Defence Against Evil MI Hauma 45 Legion of Morusai the Chieftain MI Hekellu xx Legion of the Translucent Emerald HI 34 Legion of the Many-Legged Serpent MI 80 Legion of the Whistling Peak HL Jaikalor 25 Legion of Lord Langsha of Jaikalor MI 84 Legion of the Dancer Without Eyes AH Jakalla 13 Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire HI 21 Legion of Mighty Jakalla HI 24 Legion of Gusha the Khirgari MI 31 Legion of the Night of Shadows MI 51 Legion of Girikteshmu BW 65 Legion of Mengano the Jakallan AR 67 Battalions of Vrishtara the Mole SP 70 Squadrons of Tlaneno the Steersman MR Katalal 36 Forces of Lord Ga'anish of Katalal MI 68 Slayers of Cities SP Khirgar 73 Legion of Gr-Ga the Egg Layer SH 79 Legion of Tikik-dsa-ke PC Kurt Hills 63 Legion of the Inverted Hand LI Meku 54 Regiment of the Knower of Spells CB Mrelu 15 Legion of the Deep Purple Dark HI 37 Regiment of Noble Ssiyor of Mrelu MI Paya Gupa 18 Legion of the Lord of Wisdom HI 77 Legion of the Nest of Ttik-Deqeq PC Penom 17 Legion of the Fishers of Death HI 39 Armoured Vision of Death MI 69 Flotilla of Hagarr of Paranta MR Petris Layoda 61 Legion of the Twelve Paths of Avanthe SL 85 Legion of Guruggma AH Purdimal 16 Legion of Heketh of Purdimal HI 40 Legion of Chulin the Foreigner MI 41 Legion of the Prince of the Blue Room MI Ru 53 Legion of the Crystalline Peak BW Sarku 9 Legion of the Scales of Brown HI 26 Battalions of the Seal of the Worm MI 49 Legion of the Peaks of Kraa BW Sarku, North of 55 Legion of Glorious Destiny CB Sokatis 2 First Legion of Ever-Present Glory HI 22 Phalanx of Heretlekka of Sokatis HI 23 Phalanx of Lord Durritlamish of the Rotted Face MI 75 Horde of Hrk-ss, the Eater of Eggs SH 81 Legion of Aerial Joy HL Thraya 29 Cohorts of Lord Chegarra, the Hero-King MI 30 Legion of the Clan of the Golden Sphere MI 66 Legion of Gagarsha of Mmillaka AR Thri'il 19 Legion of the Mace Raised High HI 27 Legion of Mnashu of Thri'il MI Tleku 11 Legion of the Echoing Stone HI Tumissa 28 Golden Sunburst Legion MI 32 Legion of the Lord of Red Devastation MI 57 Legion of the Citadel of Glory CB 58 Legion of Lord Kharihaya CB Tumissa, West of 83 Legion of the Deep Green Shade PL Tu'unmra 62 Legion of the Sapphire Kirtle LI Urmish 20 Legion of Lord Kurukaa HI 59 Legion of the Clan of the Standing Stone SL 74 Legion of the City of Chri SH Usenanu 46 Forces of Chai Miridai MI 52 Legion of Elechu of Usenanu BW Vra 7 Legion of Mirkitani, Hero of Victories HI 44 Battalions of Sruma of Vra MI 60 Legion of the Joyful Clan of the Noble Vrayani SL ?????? 35 Legion of the Storm of Fire MI The number of units based in Bey Su is impressive but Sokatis is surprisingly large. Any comments? Peter ----- //550 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff comments on Shawn's idea about when to base a] [ campaign (or how to change the base of a campaign from ] [ one time period to another. ] Shawn Bond sez: >I have been thinking of involving my players in those halcyon days of the >Petal Throne just before the war with Yan Kor. I think it would be fun... Y' know, there's another way to do that sort of thing also. Long ago, I spotted this: "Still further down and off to one side of (the present-day Jakalla), the Bednalljan levels of the Underworld are said to contain the rich tomb of Mnekshetra, the Lesbian mistress of Queen Nayari of the Silken Thighs... "In any case, attempting to open the tomb incorrectly is said to result in the party's being transported back through time to stand face to face with wrathful Nayari herself..." Sure-- the first few times someone tries it. After a while, though... -Ding!- "Attention, please... Flight 442 from AS 2358 now arriving..." Placards written in modern-day Tsolyani set up in the now-reconverted 'throne room': 'This way to the surface'... Vendors selling frynuts and worthless amulets to the newly-arrived 'immigrants'... Even if it never gets THAT bad, that sort of rumor is going to spark someone's fancy. Imagine-- all the well-known gold and diamond mines, not yet dug... What was apparently intended as a TRAP, might become a deliberate OBJECTIVE. (Heck, some bright boy might turn the well-trodden road to that particular tomb into an Imperial-- or ecclesiastical-- dumping-ground for recalcitrant felons-- don't bother killing them, just throw 'em right out of the world, back 13,000 years-- you'll sure never hear from THEM again...) All of this assumes that you don't simply bungee-jump or otherwise hurl yourself into the Crater of the Unstraightened City-- that's an awfully long journey to reach, and there's no telling -where- you would end up. (Though when that became an option in the game I was refereeing, I took a hint from Lafferty's 'The World as Will and Wallpaper'-- the players would end up wherever they -wanted- to end up, IF enough of them wanted it STRONGLY enough...) Scenarios or campaigns involving huge time-displacements are very possible, and can be a lot of fun, under the right circumstances. G. ----- //551 From: Wayne Griffin Morrison [Moderator's Note: Wayne Morrision asks about the end of our world in ] [ Tekumel's past. ] > Central America, parts of India, and a region on the Arabian peninsula > escaped the total destruction of today's world that will occur in the year > 2,012-3. Isn't this about when the Long Count turns over to the next epoch? As I recall, when that happens, this world will be destroyed by earthquakes. Is there any information on just how today's world was destroyed? [Moderator's Note: As this is about 15 year away, I hope not... Could you ] [ elaborate a bit more? ] Thanks, Wayne Morrison ----- //552 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff asks about the 3 light drive. ] Nuno's original question. >>7 - Did Prof. Barker ever elaborate on how the 3-light-drive and the >>FTL technology worked ? Can you tell me the average speed or travel-time >>of a spaceship ? Professor's Answer >Not a clue. I am not a technician! In fact I can barely use this computer. >You'll have to inquire from one of the Pe Choi. That's a question I've always wondered myself. That's an -awfully- specific name to be so formless in concept. 'Three light?' The name suggests a drive that 'travels' at 3c, and certainly that would -help-, but to reach Tau Ceti, favored possibility of having Earth-like planets, you're still looking at a voyage of four years duration... one way. [Moderator's Note: When I spoke with Phil today, here is what he said about ] [ the 3 light drive. There is not much known about it, of ] [ course, but he felt that the 3-lights referred to what ] [ was seen of the ship entering FTL speeds from a companion] [ ship at a point somewhere nearby in regular space. ] [ Apparently there are 3 "bursts" of light in succession as] [ the ships translate to FTL speeds. More than this is ] [ just not known. (I asked him what it looked like from the] [ cockpit/bridge, but he didn't know.) ] Yeah-- I've wondered about that for a good many years. Something ELSE I've wondered at the same time-- in the S & G Sourcebook, the sun Tuleng is identified as 'Sinistra,' Nu Ophiuchi. I suppose it would be possible to discover this through labor-intensive research, but again, so specific a choice suggests that the answer is already known-- How far away is Nu Ophiuchi? What light year distance is given for it? [Moderator's Note: No idea. Any astronomers amongst us? ] P.S. I'm -still- wondering how quickly Chlen-hide rots. Is Grandfather's armour still good, or will it kill the foolish scion who trusts in it? [Moderator's Note: I think the consensus was that the life of Chlen hide was] [ darn near close to that of bronze. I don't think it rots] [ per se, but it might become brittle with time. I think ] [ that Grandpa's armour would be OK. How far back, I don't] [ know. ] Gordon ----- //553 [Moderator's Note: Joe Saul writes about life expectancy on Tekumel. ] This isn't *exactly* on-topic, but it is relevant to Tekumel, and the response below pushed a personal hot button. >10 - The lifetime expectancy in Tekumel is low. Be very careful about using life expectancy figures for pre-industrial cultures. In fact, be cautious about life expectancy figures in general. They may not mean what you think they mean. For example, there are sources which state that the average life expectancy for people in medieval Europe was 45 years. Many, many fantasy authors and gamers (and not a few members of the popular press) infer from this that anyone over 50 was considered unimaginably ancient. This is not true. That figure includes a staggering *child and infant mortality* rate, which drags the average age at death way way down. In point of fact, many, if not most, children died before puberty. (Side note: if you've ever read the Icelandic Sagas, this is why one family might have two sons named Thorhall and a daughter named Thorhalla. They liked the name, and wanted to keep it in the family, so they hedged their bets.) If you made it past birth, and past the vulnerable (to disease) childhood years, you would likely live substantially longer than 45. So before you use life expectancy numbers to determine what's considered "old" in a culture, find out whether they include the infant and child deaths. What you really want to know is "if you make it past 12, how long can you expect to live." Joe Saul ----- //554 [Moderator's Note: Peter Timko asks the following of the list and the ] [ Professor. Please feel free to comment everyone, and ] [ I'll collect them and post them together. ] I have a few questions which I'd be curious to hear from the list about, and a few perhaps best answered by Professor Barker. (Hello, Professor Barker.) Some time ago in this world (but only @ 2365 in Tekumel) I lost touch with a gentleman with whom I'd been dialectically interacting. His name was Ti'er (an attempt to give an appropriately different vowel structure for a verbal noun to the Arabic root t . y . r (I can't quite get the back "t" symbol on this email program) of the theoretical form I verb "tayara" -- to fly), and he was last seen in Fasiltum. He was a native of Haida Pakala only recently granted citizenship in Tsolyanu and accepted into the Black Y clan. As I moved away from the area of the GM -- who was not able to come up with the lineages associated with the Black Y, could you give me an idea of some of the major ones, and tell me (if you know) into which of them Ti'er was accepted? Also, is there a major temple affiliation of this clan. Finally, where might be found its most significant clan houses, and are there any in Fasiltum? If you know him, one Mokar hiScheschel of the OAL (a high officer, if he's to be believed) and Lord Qoruma hiRi'inyussa (of the OAL in Fasiltum) were the ones who ordered Ti'er about most often and may know where and if he is. Ti'er was 24 at the time and a pawn of, alternately(?), the Omnipotent Azure Legion and the Vriddi of Fasiltum (he was even given a golden armband by Lord Tlaquru hiVriddi), both of which found him useful because of his skills and a psychic ability of 03 (which in the Swords and Glory rules made single-person magic not function on or near him) that rendered him a safe bearer of secret orders. The GM was attempting to run a sanctioned game, or so he claimed. Ti'er had most recently completed an assassination mission for the OAL on a target located but obviously not resident of the slums of Purdimal. His newly-adopted clan fathers had urged him to lay low after this mission, and placed him under cover as a chemist under the Black Hood clan, which I know has some Durritlamesh affiliation. Any significant lineages to that clan? The general questions I have involve assassins and their place in Tsolyanu, and a question of etiquette in areas where there are few witnesses. To quote an assassin's axiom from another plane, "The wise falcon hides his claws." Would a similar thing be said in Tsolyanu? That is, to typically be effective, an assassin is best unspotted by his target and bodyguards, and anyone else in most cases. Yet anyone wearing the insignia of a clan like the Black Y which is associated with the assassin craft (unless I am most mistaken), would run that risk. So, given the importance of clan affiliation to the psyche of the Tsolyani, how would one go about squaring the personal need for identification with the professional need for distance? Are assassins (competent) just weird in their ability to balance this? If my GM had a sense of how Tekumel and Tsolyanu when he had the clan leaders of the Black Y assign one of their own to a cover that included identification with another clan, that is a facet of Tsolyani society that I can't fit into the others. In _Man of Gold_, Lady Eyil hiVriyen claimed a different temple affiliation but maintained identification with her Green Kirtle Clan -- and that is something I can picture. But, again, given the psychological importance that clan plays for a Tsolyani (how much more for one whose family isn't even in the empire!), how does one manage to effectively pretend to be a part of one clan over a long period of time while actually belonging to another? The history of double agents and others who deliberately assume more than one identity to be typically strong personalities in the individualistic sense, and I know from my own visits to Tsolyanu that while such people may appear among the Tlakatoni and such clans as the Vriddi, they are extraordinarily rare. The only character in either novel who seemed remotely similar was Hele'a of Ghaton in MoG who only hid his political loyalties. From your vast experience of Tekumel and Tsolyanu, what makes people like these tick? Finally, a general sort of question. In the depths of Purdimal's slums (where the hold of imperial law is, in most cases, tenuous due to the lack of interest of its officials) an (then low-mid status) foreigner who had been entrusted with orders he was not to share with the rest of the party selected by the OAL for their expertise was called for the umpteenth time "Thief" by an officer of the Golden Sunburst Legion (of the Golden Sunburst Clan). The officer clearly was infuriated by the prospect of taking direction from the foreigner and so resorted to this nasty name calling. The foreigner said quite grimly that the next time the officer said such a thing, it would be his last. Not being able to resist, the officer asked, "Why is that, little thief?" The foreigner, who was also an assassin, pulled forth his Summoner Upon the Way to point it in the officer's eye and said before shooting a poisoned bolt into the fool's eye, "Thieves don't carry these." The balance of the party were shocked by the act, but were then unwilling to face the assassin (if for no other reason that he was the only one in position to finalize the orders only he knew, and for which there was a dread penalty for incompletion), and no one liked the arrogant officer anyway. The question is, since the officer was requisitioned by the OAL, how likely are the Legion of the Golden Sunburst of his clan to really try to figure out what happened to their man? If the other members of the party did not report the incident (as was the case) but later choose to do so, what are the likely repercussions? At last, had the charges been made at the time uopn reporting back to the OAL officer who had ordered the mission, how much would the successful completion of a delicate mission minimize the consequences? I thank one and all who took the time to read all this and reply. Peter Timko ----- //555 [Moderator's Note: George Hammond writes about the following stuff seen in ] [ a local game store. ] Not sure if this is Blueroom material or not, but a new Gamescience Swords & Glory at least seemed worthy of report. Recently seen for sale at one of my local game stores: Gamescience Swords and Glory Vol. 1, apparently new, shrink-wrapped $30 Different Worlds S&G Vol. 1, apparently new, unwrapped $12 ) Missum (miniatures rules) 2 copies, a bit shelfworn, but prob. new Armies of Tekumel: Tsolyani, many copies (8? 10?) also a bit shelfworn but prob new One boxed Gardasiyal, new, $44 Complete set, TOME Adventures in Tekumel series (CharGen, Solo volumes 1-3, and Gardasiyal vol 1-3), unwrapped, mostly $12-$18 each. The store in question (to which I have no connection): The Underworld 1208 S. University Ann Arbor, MI 48104 USA (in case it isn't obvious . MI=state of Michigan) phone: 313-998-0547 regards, George Hammond ----- //556 [Moderator's Note: Peter Timko offers up an excellent discussion about ] [ Ditlana. ] Hello, companions. I write as a new arrival to the blue room, wishing contribute, as so many others have, through an application of my Terran skill to analysis of an issue in Tsolyanu. Might I suggest that from a political and sociological point of view, the current civil war, is a good thing? On this subject I would like to quote the visionary Orson Welles, who once noted: "In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vince and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love, they had five hundred years of democracy and peace. And what did they produce? The cuckoo-clock." [Moderator's Note: And a numbered banking system... ] Never one to accept what is as eternal and uncaused, I wondered why the _ditlana_ ever came about in the first place. As both a professional and academic political researcher, I see politics everywhere. And while there is not much in the way of formal politics in Tsolyanu (as in Saudi Arabia, e.g.), there certainly is an abundance of informal things which are largely political in consequence, if not always in intent. Not knowing the history of Tsolyanu as well as many, I came up with the following hypothesis concerning the role of the _ditlana_. Basically, in a place as hoarily tradition-bound as Tsolyanu, things tend to accumulate over time, since there are few reasons to discard anything which has not ceased to serve its function, even when its function ceased to be relevant or needed. (Kind of like the old corporate culture at IBM.) In reverence to great ancestors and the pronouncements of clan elders, the temple hierarchies and Imperial officials of the past, the baroque (by Terran standards) architecture of Tsolyani society and everything in it became sufficiently embellished/adorned/encrusted as to become ill. The _ditlana_ served, like a Terran move from house to house writ exceedingly large, to force clans and temples and governors to differentiate between the essential (in Tsolyani terms) and that which can be set aside -- not because anyone would have made such a distinction before but, because we can't take EVERYTHING, we must perforce choose SOME things over others. I can only imagine what benefit this had socio-politically. With the "loss" of what had been necessary before, the great clans and temples must spend time gaining "new" things to replace those lost things which added to knowledge or prestige or comfort, et. al. Moreover, the great clans have perhaps less time and energy and money left over from these other pursuits than before the _ditlana_, so some cabals, costly alliances and elaborate plans get abadoned in favor of more immediate and material concerns. Meanwhile, the temples would be correspondingly more inclined to focus inward to reassess what they actually now still have access to (something that even the Temples of Thumis and Ksarul are far from perfect at now); and consequently are unable to maintain the same level of complex political maneuvering of the immediately pre-_ditlana_ era. From a more theological standpoint, the _ditlana_ might be something of a compromise between Stability and Change. If the empire went the way Tsolyani law prescribes, there would be very little that seemed to change in the lifetime of three generations or more. Beyond that, a largely illiterate society, bound by tradition and not at all prone to critical questioning, could easily come to perceive Stability as the natural order of things. Yet with a _ditlana_ every half millenium or so, there become markers for a time when "this was/was not there" and in that sense, if no other, Change marks the life of the imperium as well as Stability. (Perhaps this also suggests why the temples of Change have greater practical knowledge of the under-cities than those of Stability. The _ditlana_ is a comfortable part of the _weltanschauung_ of those who serve Change, while it would not seem to fit as well into that of those who serve Stability. This would be particularly true if, as it seems, the ditlana was proclaimed by the emperor when the emperor chose, not according to some set schedule of date.) But currently, in Tsolyanu, there has been no _ditlana_ for more than 800 years. None of the benefits of the ceremony noted above are present. Instead, we have very powerful clans able to successfully contribute to those who oppose the Emperor; and even while the temple people Avanthar have accepted and laid on the legitimacy of he who currently occupies the Petal Throne, it is clear that significant and potent factions within the temples of Vimuhla, Karakan and Ksarul (at least) haven't accepted it. Had such a situation occurred 500 or 600 years ago, would the power of imperium be so weak as to encourage such seditious behavior? To tentatively borrow a metaphor from old Britannia (to make a point in this essay, not to create a sinful example of foreign elocution in Tsolyani), the ship of state over- encrusted with barnacles need not fear the appearance of an _akho_ (of state), since it will inevitably sink into the arms of the creature at the sign of the first storm. Hence, perhaps, the current civil war -- particularly if the next emperor is able to pull the empire together again to defeat Baron Ald and his Red Hat allies -- would serve the purpose that the _ditlana_ might have served. (My bet would be on Mirusiya, with something being worked out with Eselne.) Such an emperor might style himself "The Cleansing Flame" -- a nice tribute to Vimuhla and a link to the last Emperor who ordered a _ditlana_: Hijekka IV, "Restorer of Dignities." A _ditlana_ might have well been easier than the present circumstances, but it would have brought fewer cabals to the surfance and would have left more corrupted (in the physical, not moral, sense) socio-political structures in place than today's current strife. This storm cloud, mayhap, need not have come; but that is the silver lining I see in it now that it's here. Comments, particularly those to the contrary, are most welcome. Dialectically, Peter (Chico) Timko ----- //557 [Moderator's Note: Matthew Pook offers the following. ] Below is a review of the original EPT RPG. This is for a small press publication devoted to second hand games. I thought that you would like to see this before I send it off. =================================================== Empire of the Petal Throne Role-Playing Game, TSR, 1975. Empire of the Petal Throne is certainly one of the oldest RPGs, and is perhaps the eldest of all. It was TSR's second fantasy RPG, published a year after Dungeons & Dragons and the same year as Boot Hill. At the time only Flying Buffalo's Tunnels & Trolls competed against those three. Yet of these four, which survive now? Obviously, and despite TSR's recent financial difficulties, D&D continues. Nobody plays T&T (all right, so prove me wrong), and the Western genre has been supplanted by a wild and weird West. Empire of the Petal Throne (EPT) has survived, but not easily and its future is uncertain bar the devotions of its followers. So what is EPT and why has it survived? EPT is set on the planet Tekumel, a resort world for the citizens of an interstellar human empire. Some 60,000 years from now this world is ripped asunder from our dimension and enclosed in one of its own. Neither residents nor tourists can maintain their high technology and as civilisation falls, they must return to a very basic subsistence lifestyle, for Tekumel is resource poor and they are beset by many of the alien races that man has placed in reservoirs on the planet. Much time passes. The earliest known history is 25,000 years in the past and is mere fragments. The emperors that sit upon the Petal Throne of the nation of Tsolyanu have ruled for only 2,500 years. Another four similar empires of man surround Tsolyanu. The society and culture of Tsolyanu is nothing like you have seen before. Although this is a fantasy RPG, it eschews their employment of the typical medieval or Graeco-Roman paradigms. As such Tsolyanu is not based upon any model of western society or history. Instead it seems to look to South America, India and South-East Asia. Think Aztec, Mayan, India prior to the arrival of the East India company, Tibet and Thailand. These are not entirely apt descriptions, but they serve to point you in the right direction. Tsolyani society is highly organised and everyone knows their place in it. Family and clan status is very important to identity, as is their religion. The illiterate majority conform to their family and clan occupations and religions, but the players will mostly come from lineages and clans of higher status that may allow them some mobility and choice. Government comes in the form of the Emperor, the administrative palaces and the temples. Service to these is regarded as highly honourable, and is often the key to advancement. Religion is a pervading influence in daily life, and is keyed around the worship of ten gods and their cohorts. Split equally between the Lords of Stability and of Change, not only are these gods very real, being actual higher lifeforms, but they are involved in a cold war between themselves, using their worshippers as pawns. Given this, an idea such as atheism would not even occur to a native of Tsolyanu. Traditionally the players are unaware of much of this. In the classic game they begin as fishermen from a distant tribe that have travelled from islands far to the south, arriving at the docks of Jakalla. There to be confronted by the heavy Tsolyanu bureaucracy. Until such times as they can find employment and thus the temporary patronage of some Tsolyani clansman, they are confined to the foreign quarter of the city. At the very least they will need a guide as they have no knowledge of the intricate rules governing the etiquette that Tsolyani natives love so much. Their eventual aim is adoption by a clan and thus Tsolyani citizenship. In later versions of the game, rules and guidelines are provided so that players can create Tsolyani natives. The setting of EPT is the creation of one man, M. A. R. Barker, a professor of South-East Asian Studies, now retired . As a boy he had created the world in which to wargame with friends and he kept developing Tekumel as an adult. Part of this development had been linguistic in the form. Not only does Tsolyanu have its own language, but so do the other four empires, and learning to at least pronounce some Tsolyani, is a helpful aid to play. The 1975 TSR rules were the first to be published and marked a departure from the three small booklets and box format that was the norm. It was a black and white spiral bound book, on heavy stock, illustrated by Barker himself. These are pen and ink drawings which are almost of a professional standard and add much to the atmosphere of the game. In addition to the rulebook, there was a reference sheet and three maps. These are quite gorgeous, showing in bright colours the Northern continent which is home to Tsolyanu, as well as a plan of the city of Jakalla. All are on heavy stock with a protective plastic coating, and with their numbered hex grid, have been used as reference for many subsequent publications, all of them from different companies and despite the fact that the TSR rules had long been out of print. The game came in a zip-lock bag or boxed, this having coloured artwork. The rules for creating characters can clearly be seen as derived from D&D, but develops them a little further. Attributes are percentile based, with Psychic Ability and Comeliness replacing Wisdom and Charisma. There are only three character professions, Warrior, Magic User and Priests, and only the Warrior does not receive spells. Alignment is confined to just Good and Evil, though such a distinction feel at odds with the world that Barker describes. Finally players roll for skills, and since they are broken down into plebeian, skilled and noble tables, they also serve to indicate the social status of each player. After this, they roll for skills pertaining to their profession, which can also be learnt as they progress in levels. For the remainder of the rules, EPT is clearly a D&D clone, but they are effective in their simplicity, and by tying them to a specific setting, are better than the originals. The problem comes when trying to play the game. Although the thrust of the game is interaction with a very alien culture, both to players and characters, it is not supported in the rules. Rather, these favour the exploration of the Underworld. In other words, a dungeon crawl. The Underworld exists on Tekumel, created as tombs for the dead, as temple complexes, and as the remnants of buildings leftover from the process of pulling whole cities down and rebuilding anew every five centuries. But its exploration is seen as really dishonourable, mostly confined to tombrobbers. The influence of D&D can be seen here in all its vain glory. Despite EPT being highly popular with TSR, the game was not successful. The fault for this is twofold. Partly it lies with the impenetrable nature of the game with its highly developed history, background and of course, the languages. Whilst this contributes greatly to the feeling and atmosphere of EPT, not everyone wants to learn. In comparison, you can play a Klingon in Star Trek, and an Elf in Middle Earth, without having to learn a word of Klingon or Sindar, though doing so might add to the enjoyment of the game. Yet this is not possible in EPT. The second problem was the game's price, which was dictated by its deluxe format. D&D cost just $10. EPT cost $27.50, which made it very expensive in comparison. This is something that has dogged the game even into its latest incarnation. Yet despite these problems the game found a home with a devoted few. It required dedication to play. Its culture depth and resulting atmosphere, led to an immersive experience. Compare with the shallowness of opening the door, ethnically cleansing any occupants and running off with their treasure, that was D&D (and at its heart, is still) of the time. The game is still played by many of those devotees both in the USA and the UK, despite a very potted and ragged publishing history, which includes four publishers to date. This has restricted widespread popularity, as has the fact that none of its fans can really agree on a set of rules for the game. Like so many games, EPT has found a home on the Internet, and in particular has a very good mailing list to which Professor Barker has access. Through this, fans can be kept abreast of events in his own, the official campaign, as well as asking him questions about Tekumel. For those wanting to try EPT, it can be difficult to find a game. Occasionally events are run at conventions and this would be a good way in which to try it. Another way to get a taster would be to read 'Man of Gold', one of Professor Barker's novels, that though long out of print, can be found second hand. Finding any of the rules is less easy as they rarely turn up second hand, and if they do, are quickly snapped up. The TSR edition of Empire of the Petal Throne could be said to be one the grails of role-playing. Highly sought after, a copy in mint condition, with all three maps, will cost the buyer at least £60, if not more. At auction, this price can be as high as £200, and both will be higher if the game is still in its box. For the less discerning, there is a cheaper alternative. Different Worlds Publishing reprinted the TSR rules in 1986, but without the colourful maps. Again this is out of print (notice a pattern here?), but makes it far cheaper, perhaps £15 at the most. However you get into EPT, it can be a rewarding experience. The depth and feeling of the world and cultures that have been written into it, make for a game that is more alien and more immersive than any other role-playing game. Its creation has not the feeling of artifice, but one of growth and evolution. Though it may be difficult to get into, the effort, I feel will be worth it. -- Pookie URL: http://arts.falmouth.ac.uk/journalism/PAGES/Welcome.htm ----- //558 [Moderator's Note: The next batch of 10-15 messages will contain many con- ] [ densed messages. I have accumulated many messages on the] [ same topic, and put them together. Since there is a long] [ message backlog and a finite amount of time to get them ] [ out, I'll resort to this. This message refers to Peter ] [ Bismire's Legion HQ list. First the Professor comments, ] [ and then Wes Postlethwaite makes an observation. ] [Professor Barker's Comments] Excellent list! Various legions have moved, a couple have been disbanded or were wiped out, and some have been augmented. New legions? Just a couple that came out of the period just before the Civil War. Other new unitd have tended to be integrated into existing legions, without regard for the limitation to 20 Cohorts. Thanks for doing this! Phil --- [Wes' Comments] I was surprsed to see in the midst of a "Civil War" that Legions of warring faction s share the same city for a Head Quarters. Most notably Legion of Red Devastation in Tumissa. The Governor is a Flame worshipper but staying loyal to the Emperor while possibly helping the Flame Prince? ----- //559 [Moderator's Note: This message deals with topic of change on Tekumel, and ] [ how different cultures look at change. Gordon Neff ] [ makes 2 comments, and is followed by Ian Atkinson. ] [Gordon's 1st Comments] >Meanwhile, I have some mail for you. Here is a summons to the Palace of >of the Realm to meet with representatives of the Imperial Couriers and >the Blazing Sword Clan -- seems that fellow didn't like being bound to >your two-wheeled contraption. Speaking of which, several clanmasters from >the carter's clans are waiting outside the clanhouse to speak with you >about your infringement of their occupation. Then there are some military >officers waiting to speak with you about your 'innovation' which apparently >violates a treaty we made with the Sa'a Allaqiani in fourth century A.S. >Oh, and here's a dispatch from the Hirilakte arena - apparently you're >to appear in a duel with one Adlar hiFershena, and aggrieved Imperial >Courier with rope burns and one of the best swordsmen of the valley of >Kashkomai... Chris: You know, in all this time I've never dared even MENTION one thing that my players introduced when they were bashing around with various get-rich-quick schemes-- one of the players showed me where he'd learned about this, and it was fascinating. (To me, anyway.) It was a little gimmick dreamed up in France for Napoleon's use; he tried it and it worked splendidly. It's a semaphore telegraph. You have a pole with two movable arms and flags thereon. A man with a telescope stands at its base, looking downrange at the previous pole. What its arms do, he tells his assistant to do. Beyond him, another man is watching HIS pole, and so on. The arms are racheted to 'stick' at 45 degree intervals to avoid ambiguity-- up, quarter, straight, quarter, down. In its field trial, it brought a message from the coast to Paris a full twelve hours ahead of the fastest horse-relay messenger. On Tekumel, where 'fighting sail' hasn't denuded the forests and where telescopes are all but unknown, the semaphores are made VASTLY bigger to allow for the same distances between. Mounted either cross-country or on the Sakbe Roads, they would shave DAYS off of any military or Imperial message carried by jogging courier. Theoretically, reports from a a field commander could get to Avanthe the same day they were sent! I suppose the Imperial Couriers and the Blazing Sword Clan wouldn't be too thrilled with THAT innovation, either... -- G. -- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single biggest pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist? --- [More Comments from Gordon] 'Some of the troops in the "war-wagon" are likely to be of good clans, and they would feel somewhat less than noble if they were ordered to ride into battle on a slave-pulled wagon. "Are we then Dlel-fruit or Dna-grain? Hauled to market like invalids? The foe can see us coming, riding high upon our wagons, and they target their missiles upon us."' Now, see, that's marvelous. That's why I've always liked Tekumel-- what pseudo-European society on an unexplained Earth-twin would even -think- of that? That certainly answers the question, far and away-- though a niggling little voice reminds me of how equally 'disgusting' and 'shameful' the Japanese samurai felt the use of European guns to be. They swallowed their dudgeon quickly enough, though, after watching their entire battle line get -waxed-... 'Wagons pulled by humans (and even lumbering Chlen-beasts) have indeed been tried. The pullers took arrowfire, and a few in the forefront would drop in the traces. The "war-wagon" would then come to a disordered halt, blocking advancing units behind... Armouring the wagon like a Roman "tortoise" made the whole thing too slow for field battles and only useful for a siege. This is now the sort of cultural no-no that is automatically rejected by present-day generals.' That, also, answers my query-- indeed, turns it back on itself adroitly. '(Humans) who pull their masters' chariots not quite as fast as their terrestrial equine counterparts, perhaps, but again, can do so for vastly longer...' Except that in the absence of that speed, they do, indeed, get SHOT more easily. Oh, well... It IS difficult for a Western mentality to understand, of course, raised on our historically unprecedented practice of putting two ideas together and making a third-- that 'one and one make three.' I made a comment earlier that I told Chris not to bother publishing, about that whole 'gunpowder' business. 'My players keep asking why some enterprising young priest-scholar just does not combine sulphur, charcoal, and saltpetre and produce gunpowder. This, again, is a view from "hindsight."' I had read in the Sourcebook that it -had- been invented, but laughed to scorn because of the superior pyrotechnics sorcery could produce. True-- the early cannon produced far more flash and smoke than real damage. The reason why anyone used them, was simply that anyone -could- use them. An expert longbowman could kill six musketeers or crossbowmen while they were gearing up to fire once. But that expert was the product of years of intensive training-- he was expensive. Crossbows and muskets were easier to learn and easier to use, and whole -armies- of them could take the field in the time it took for one 'master bowman' to learn his craft-- and then he got his head blown off. Certainly, sorcery was more powerful-- but for how few people, after how many years of dedicated training? Where I felt this might apply was in the earlier discussion of 'battle magic.' Stated simply, if an entire Legion has learned a nursery-rhyme mnemonic which produces a basic 'kill' spell, they're going to mop up the field while the real, heavy sorcerors are still cooking up their first astral whammy. Of course, any 'one on one' contest would be ludicrous, just as one musketeer against a longbowman would be doomed-- but the mass attack is what counts, just as with smoothbore muskets. As I said to Chris, who -cares- if a given musket can't hit the side of a barn, if you've just touched off a hundred of them? They're all going to hit -somewhere-... Much the same reasoning went into my discussion of bronze. People are GONNA use what works, tradition be blowed; what use is a dead traditionalist? Certainly, a hardwood kendo stick is light and cheap, easy to carry and no horrific penalty if lost. It will also get me KILLED, if I am stupid enough to use it against an enemy carrying a real katana. [Moderator's Note: Tell that to Musashi... ] 'Obtaining bronze swords for the entire Tsolyani army would be a major drain on the Empire's fiscal reserves.' When annihilation is the alternative, define 'major drain.' What sank my whole argument was the confirmation that Chlen-hide actually IS every bit as hard as bronze. That changes everything. If bronze has no advantage, then its disadvantages of expense are unacceptable. All of this makes perfect sense, and indeed, Chlen-hide becomes truly marvelous stuff. Otherwise-- if Chlen-hide were even -slightly- inferior in hardness... 'Wielding a heavy weapon in battle (loaded with armour, etc.) is a lot less appealing than whacking away with a lighter (= faster?) Chlen-hide blade.' Unless your blade shears through theirs like Hittite iron through Sumerian copper... Medieval knights were strong as Superman from swinging those thirty-pound swords around all day. I'm sure they'd have loved lighter weapons-- loved they not their LIVES more... 'If you lose, you can get away faster, too...' Good thing, too, that being your only option at that point. However, in retrospect the very persistence of Chlen-hide should have indicated this to me. 'The sources for copper and tin are separated by about half of the sprawling Tsolyani Empire, and slave caravans are incredibly slow. Bronze is sought after, but it could never replace Chlen-hide for economic reasons.' Right. When your copper is in Spain and your tin is in Cornwall, TELL me about transportation problems. But there were fortunes to be made by whoever overcame them-- and presto! Ships sailed and trade routes ran across Western Europe in all directions. Obviously, there was no such incentive here. -- I must say, I -am- delighted to be here. -- Gordon. P.S. 'Meanwhile, I have some mail for you. Here is a summons to the Palace of the Realm to meet with representatives of the Imperial Couriers and the Blazing Sword Clan -- seems that fellow didn't like being bound to your two-wheeled contraption. Speaking of which, several clanmasters from the carter's clans are waiting outside the clanhouse to speak with you about your infringement of their occupation. Then there are some military officers waiting to speak with you about your 'innovation' which apparently violates a treaty we made with the Sa'a Allaqiani in fourth century A.S. Oh, and here's a dispatch from the Hirilakte arena - apparently you're to appear in a duel with one Adlar hiFershena, and aggrieved Imperial Courier with rope burns and one of the best swordsmen of the valley of Kashkomai...' Si eppur muoeve... --- [Ian Atkinson's comments] This comment relates to message 546 from Gordon Neff. Your application to the Temple of Ksarul for funding for a program to breed a sub-human race of mutant porters that can serve as steeds in a chariotry-style formation has not been approved. The Temple has several long-term projects of miscegenation underway and it is felt that your proposal, intriguing as it is, would divert resources unnecessarily and that continued support over the required number of centuries is unlikely to be forthcoming. You may request information about the works in progress that have higher priority than your proposal but after telling you we would have to kill you. Our principal reservation is that a chariot can be obtained relatively easily by current sorcerous techniques [see The Winged Disk of the Lord of the Sun, spell number 123 in the Gardasiyal sorcery book]. Also, we know that breeding dogs intensively for particular physical characteristics often produces lines that are temperamentally quirky [vicious poodles, idiotic corgis, etc]. The hard part of the breeding program would be making mutants that are sufficiently intelligent and endowed with the right combination of bravery and obedience to be of practical use on the battlefield. Even dogs, which have been bred to be very useful in circumstances of individual combat and bodyguarding, have never been used in pitched battles as they tend to lose discipline under such stressful situations. With sorcery all manner of abominations and monstrosities can be produced. Some of them are useful in various ways, such as guarding, spying, individual combat, storing psychic power, but the battlefield is a uniquely testing environment for such creations and is best left to regular soldiers, military sorcerors and demons of martial natures. - Ian Atkinson. ----- //560 [Moderator's Note: This message deals with the Long Count mentioned in ] [ Message 551. The Professor replies, and Gordon Neff adds] [ a couple of comments. ] [The Professor Says...] Yes, the Maya Long Count comes to the end of its major cycle in 2012. There is an obvious connection: the Maya were among those who survived the cataclysm that brought about the "Cloudless Sky": the long afternoon of high technology, starships, contact with other species, trade, and eventually -- thousands of years down the road -- Tekumel. The planet was later transported into a dimensional bubble, as most of you know, which left it and its solar system all alone. The records speak of the "Cataclysm of the First Annihilation," which I assumed meant the great destruction of 2012-13. It is said that this came about because somebody in one of the fragmented Russian republics accidentally (?) fired off his left-over nuclear missiles, which then caused others -- some on automatic -- to fire back. These were very "dirty" bombs, which spread clouds of radioactivity and nuclear winter all over the Earth. If you have kids, see about enlisting them in the army -- and then transferring them to the great subterranean base at Cheyenne Mountain! (Is that its name?) Or they can become guides in the Mammoth Cave... Or perhaps take them to Saudi Arabia or Guatemala??? As I recall, some of the European and Noth American residents of those localities did survive. Some intermarried, others were slain by angry mobs, and a few managed to keep their heritages alive for a while. None that I know of, however, maintained their ethnic or group identity up to the great push out into space. By that time the Terran population was fairly homogeneous, rather like the Tekumelani today. I know I will not be around until 2012. All I can do, thus, is wish you well and hope you manage to "get out of Dodge" before it is gone. Happy survival! Regards, Phil --- [Gordon's Comments...] >>Central America, parts of India, and a region on the Arabian peninsula >>escaped the total destruction of today's world that will occur in the year >>2,012-3. >Isn't this about when the Long Count turns over to the next epoch? >As I recall, when that happens, this world will be destroyed by >earthquakes. >Is there any information on just how today's world was destroyed? >[Moderator's Note: As this is about 15 year away, I hope not... Could you ] [ elaborate a bit more? ] Chris: Of course, it is long graven in stone that -something- like this occurred, and there is a comment in the Sourcebook about Mayan and Arabic becoming the interstellar lingua franca (whew-- foreigners think ENGLISH is difficult to learn!) but somehow, it seems an incomplete picture. After all, as Tekumel itself shows clearly, a world is an awfully BIG place... Is it not more likely that these are merely the ethnic sources of the settlers of Tekumel itself-- that is, of the known regions thereon? (Who knows -what- was deposited elsewhere.) If a world is big, Space is a Whole Lot Bigger, and an interstellar human civilization would be such a hugely dispersed Diaspora that entirely separate -species- of humanity would eventually emerge. It just seems more likely that this 'lingua franca' is a relatively local institution... 'local' being an extremely relative term, of course... In short, 'the rulers of Humanspace' might simply be the rulers of -this- neck of the woods. They might not-- indeed, almost certainly would not know how many OTHER such empires of humanity exist out there among the stars... Even if the Northern Hemisphere got wiped in toto, as the surviving, roughly Equatorial locations suggest, you tell me how Australia, South Africa and Argentina managed to dry up and blow away as well. Prof Barker says he knows little about those other 772 vanished worlds; I'll lay cash on a number of them having an Afrikaan-Zulu-Boer base... --G. --- [Gordon Continues...] Plus: "Is it not more likely that these are merely the ethnic sources of the settlers of Tekumel itself-- that is, of the known regions thereon? (Who knows -what- was deposited elsewhere.) "In short, 'the rulers of Humanspace' might simply be the rulers of -this- neck of the woods. They might not-- indeed, almost certainly would not know how many OTHER such empires of humanity exist out there among the stars..." Bear in mind, this does not in any way invalidate what the Professor was saying. Just as the Mesopotamian legend-spinners who told of Noah's Ark knew nothing of Khasisatra of Chaldea and -his- ark, or Deucalion of Aramaea and -his- ark, nor that of the Indian Manu, nor certainly of the ark floated by Central America's Coxcox and his wife Xochiquetzal-- and so spoke of Noah's family as being the only surviving humanity-- Just so would it be 'fact,' especially after ten thousand years or so, that ONLY 'Central America, parts of India, and a region on the Arabian peninsula survived.' After all, the Mesopotamians never met the Mayans, never even heard of 'em-- they literally knew no better than to believe their own version of events. Expanding slowly through infinite space, unbounded by one round world, it's even -less- likely that the culture which settled Tekumel would ever have encountered any hint of the other fragments' existence. Naturally they speak of being alone. They -are-... G. ----- //561 [Moderator's Note: This message includes comments about the 3-Light drive ] [ from Keith Dalluhn, some more from the Professor. There] [ are also some tidbits on Chlen hide from the Professor, ] [ and Stephen Foster writes about Tekumel's Sun. ] [Keith's respone...] >[Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff asks about the 3 light drive. ] > >Nuno's original question. >>>7 - Did Prof. Barker ever elaborate on how the 3-light-drive and the >>>FTL technology worked ? Can you tell me the average speed or travel-time >>>of a spaceship ? > >Professor's Answer >>Not a clue. I am not a technician! In fact I can barely use this computer. >>You'll have to inquire from one of the Pe Choi. > >That's a question I've always wondered myself. That's an -awfully- >specific name to be so formless in concept. 'Three light?' > >The name suggests a drive that 'travels' at 3c, and certainly that >would -help-, but to reach Tau Ceti, favored possibility of having >Earth-like planets, you're still looking at a voyage of four years >duration... one way. > >[Moderator's Note: When I spoke with Phil today, here is what he said about ] >[ the 3 light drive. There is not much known about it, of ] >[ course, but he felt that the 3-lights referred to what ] >[ was seen of the ship entering FTL speeds from a companion] >[ ship at a point somewhere nearby in regular space. ] >[ Apparently there are 3 "bursts" of light in succession as] >[ the ships translate to FTL speeds. More than this is ] >[ just not known. (I asked him what it looked like from the] >[ cockpit/bridge, but he didn't know.) ] > >Yeah-- I've wondered about that for a good many years. My character, Sanjesh hiKirisaya, has had a few adventures on interstellar ships, and here are some excerpts from his journals on the matter of the 3-light drive and interstellar travel: .....soon after the battle started we could see that their battle magics were much more powerfull than ours. We tried a few attacks but to no avail. I pulled out the interfogulator that Prince Reresqala had given me and turned it on as a last ditch effort. Once started, the device created a dome shaped matrix of blue light. It started out about as big as the courtyard outside the clanhouse in Usenanu. The feeling inside was strange, as though the skin to other planar power had become thicker somehow. The battle raged on around me, but it was hazy. As I turned the dial on the left, the dome grew larger and larger untill it covered the entire battlefield. The battle magics quickly subsided and our troops were able to over come the Salarvyani......... ....I keep going back to the old mark 5 interfogulator in the basement. I can't help but think how nice it would be to find a place large enough and get back and get that mark 200 out of that ship and bring it back....... .....Horodai and I spoke again today. He knows far more than I give him credit for somedays. Together we were able to discern that not only will an interfogulator stop magic, it does so by slicing the planes around it into nice uniform pieces. I am thinking that by casting a nexus point spell from the inside you could open a gate to a different plane rather simply. I will have to dig up that eye........ ....Ais says I am crazy. She is probably right. I turned on the interfogulator this evening, and by nightfall, the OAL had arrived. Said they had noticed a huge use of magic here earlier in the day. I explained that we had had a Thumis ritual and had invoked Thumis himself. I don't think they believed me, but left without another word...... .....I had often wondered how those huge ships of the ancients had been able to travel so fast between places. I may have discovered how. The interfogulator is an intergral part I believe. With it a ship would be able to create a grid around itself of perfectly inter-sliced planes. It would then be a simple matter to move the ship toward one of these intersections with a known destination and blast THROUGH the spaces the interfogulator created to get to the new plane quickly and safely..... -Keith --- [The Professor Adds...] I can't say much more about the Three Light Drive. As I said, I am no engineer, and the science for it comes from the Pe Choi. I suppose Gene Roddenberry would have to reply similarly if somebody asked him about the science upon which StarTrek "Transporter" technology is based. I have heard that this is considered scientifically impossible on all counts. Phasers, communicators, etc. may indeed be feasible, however, given time and research to develop them. But my scientist colleagues all agree that you just cannot dissolve somebody to constituent atoms and "beam" him down to a planet or two another ship. >Something ELSE I've wondered at the same time-- in the S & G >Sourcebook, the sun Tuleng is identified as 'Sinistra,' Nu Ophiuchi. I >suppose it would be possible to discover this through labor-intensive >research, but again, so specific a choice suggests that the answer is >already known-- Yes, the planets which "disappeared" into Other-Space are known.There's an Engsvanyali poem (based on a Bednalljan or even Dragon Warrior precursor) that names Tuleng as the Left Hand (Sinistra) of the Serpent Sky (Ophiology "the study of snakes"). >How far away is Nu Ophiuchi? What light year distance is given for >it? I had this information once, but I can't lay my hands upon it now. Sorry! >P.S. I'm -still- wondering how quickly Chlen-hide rots. Is Grandfather's >armour still good, or will it kill the foolish scion who trusts in it? > >[Moderator's Note: I think the consensus was that the life of Chlen hide was] >[ darn near close to that of bronze. I don't think it rots] >[ per se, but it might become brittle with time. I think ] >[ that Grandpa's armour would be OK. How far back, I don't] >[ know. ] Chlen-hide gets brittle. The "tanning" process keeps it from "rotting" (unless buried in moist earth or kept underwater). When it becomes brittle, however, a sword will snap like a twig, and armour smashes like poor pottery. As you say, Chris, Grandpa's armour might still be all right, if stored in a dry, warm place, but I wouldn't trust it! Regards, Phil --- [Stephen Foster adds...] My records indicate that it lies about 150 light years away and is a giant star of spectral class K0III. It has an absolute magnitude of about -5, which would make it about 10,000 time brighter than the Sun. It's probably a massive star with a short life-span before it goes "kablooie" in some style. It's unlikely to have planets and it's too young for life to have evolved even if it did. Not only that, it isn't even accepted generally as a "named" star, and is usually just referred to as Nu Ophiuchi or 64 Ophiuchi Still, that's only the real world... [Moderator's Note: Thanks for chasing that down Steve! ] Steve ----- //562 [Moderator's Note: Alan Brain offers another idea on Chlen Hide, and some ] [ insight to different cultures. ] 2 Kaitars worth on Chlen Hide. The Chlen is very obviously a genetically-engineered animal. Far too useful, much like a pig, or the mythical Wumpus from the Flanders and Swan song. Rather than 'leather' as such, the skin is a complex polymer, more like Nylon, Teflon or Kevlar (at least, after polymerisation using the appropriate low-tech chameical treatment). Thus a flexible, durable plastic. A different treatment results in crystals embedded in a matrix, quite suitable for sharpening. A still different treatment results in more cross-links between polymer chains, resulting in a strong but slightly brittle plastic, much like bakelite. As regarding Rot - after some treatment, it rots no more than Nylon. Given the longevity in the environment of some plastics, I would not at all be surprised if some 20,000 year old ceremonial garb retained much of its structual integrity, and 40,000 year old Chlen-hide weapons may still be quite useable, if not exposed to sunlight (which would tend to break up the long-chain molecules due to UV... possibly a reason why so many ancient things are underground?) Anyway, such is a plausible explanation, consistent with late-20th and early-21st century knowledge. In the intervening umpty-ump millenia, who knows what knowledge has been found and lost and found again? As regards cultural Blind-Spots, and knowledge thereof. I think the only remedy is for some players to live for a few days or weeks in a totally alien culture. Start with a simple, fairly close one. Like Germany or France. Then a somewhat more peculiar one, like Israel. Then try Thailand, or parts of India. Learn a few 10s of words of each language. Or just jump in the deep end. Thailand is a good place, as it is as culturally and ethnically diverse as the USA, with Thai, Chinese, Hmon, Mao, Khmer, etc etc etc influences, all quite as distinct as Swedish is from Greek. It also has some very Tekumelian features, as I'm sure Professor Barker is well aware. Failing the availability of a spare thousand dollars or two, just read some books on Thai History in the last 200 years. You will be surprised and amazed. The campaign to wear hats in the 20's for example. The drowning last century of the Queen and Princess because Royalty were forbidden to be touched, on pain of death and extermination of the perpetrator's family. As preparation for doing business in Thailand, a few games of EPT is an excellent start! ----- //563 [Moderator's Note: Ian Atkinson provides an interesting response to Peter ] [ Timko's theory about Ditlana. ] Imel HiKetkolel of the Clan of the Purple Gem, a priest in the temple of Karakan and rusala to the 5th Imperial Heavy Infantry, responds to Peter Timko's discussion of ditlana (message 556). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ While I am able, with great difficulty, to pronounce the name of "Orson Welles", I am quite unable to agree with his thesis that times of instability promote great artists and men of letters. The period of greatest artistic and literary achievement in my civilisation occurred during an era known as Engsvlan Hla Ganga, a golden age in which Stability held sway over a vast area for a considerable time. Cultures noted for a love of bloodshed, such as the Nluss, or for political division, such as the Milumanayani or the natives of Haida Pakala, have produced little of merit. I agree with HiTimko that ditlana cleanses excessive architectural growths from cities and I feel that there is considerable merit in his idea that this cleansing extends to the reduction of excessive political and factional growths as well. There is a similarity here with the consecration of warriors, in which youths put aside the diversions of childhood, and with the rites associated with joining a legion or temple, in which an adult discards the encumbrances of civilian life. These life events may be seen as ditlana on a personal scale. Only by discarding the inessential can we steel ourselves and find the necessary focus that vigorous noble action requires. Ditlana serves a similar life-event role in a city's skein of destiny. I must take issue with HiTimko's theological contention that ditlana seems not to fit well into the weltanschauung of those who serve Stability. HiTimko remarks, quite perceptively for a barbarian from a realm barren of magic and ignorant of the Gods, that ditlana serves a time marking function. I can think of few better metaphors for Stability than the ticking of a clock. >From a social perspective, without the periodic re-starting of civic affairs through ditlana, major Change of a slow incremental character would develop in directions that are unguessable. This "progress", as I think Terrans call it, is the very antithesis of Stability and ditlana is one of the institutions by which progress is suppressed and Stability maintained. It is often thought that any form of destruction serves Change. Not so! We at the temple of Karakan are quite comfortable with the idea of supporting Stability through selective destruction. Ditlana is an excellent example of selective destruction in the interest of Stability. HiTimko speculates that failure to observe ditlana in the last 800 years has caused the present unpleasantness in Tsolyani political affairs. While I am unable to comment on the analysis by which he reaches this conclusion, since it involves consideration of "progressive" development in the absence of ditlana and that is a mode of historical study that I am unfamiliar with, I feel that his conclusion is correct. The Gods weave the skeins of imperial destinies and there is a strong whiff of Divine Retribution in the succession crisis. We know that failure to do ditlana does not please the Gods! I disagree with his opinion that a stronger empire would not have such factional opposition to Dich'une. No empire, at any time, could tolerate the theft of the Petal Throne by such illegitimate means. Peter HiTimko sees a silver lining in the current political situation, in that a war of succession will serve as a ditlana on an empire-wide scale. I don't think that any analogy can be drawn between the random devastation of civil war and the orderly elimination of ditlana. I do, however, see the prospect of a golden lining: if Eselne should ascend the throne with Kettukal as his general and with all the vital forces of the empire already mobilised for war, Yan Kor will be crushed and Livyanu will slip from Mu'ugalavyani hands into ours with ease. We would then be three fifths of the way towards reuniting the five empires in a second Engsvlan Hla Ganga. I welcome this opportunity for dialogue with a Terran and I urge all Terrans to get around to ditlana as soon as they can. Clearly their culture is deeply mired in the quicksands of progress. - Imel HiKetkolel. (translated by Ian Atkinson) ----- //564 [Moderator's Note: Gordon Neff may have found a Tekumel sighting. I'll have] [ to go back and check the movie, but it would be interest-] [ ing to have Phil comment on this. Have you seen the ] [ movie in question, Phil? If not, let's try to find a ] [ copy for you to view. ] Chris: Well, well. Lookee what we have here... 1984's "Star Trek III: The Search For Spock" concludes on the planet Vulcan, with a massive ceremonial ritual conjuring up heavy magic. Lightning flashes, the thing takes all night, &c., &c. Now, this whole sequence is HUGELY REDOLENT of Tekumel-- put a few million bucks into an EPT movie, and you could produce something essentially identical. The High Priestess in headdress and robes, with lesser priests and priestesses flocking around; guards in fantastically ornate armor with pike-like weapons no less ornate, a huge gong struck ritually... Fine. Interesting coincidence. Very impressive sequence, too. Then I just HAPPENED to get a close look at the chap striking the gong. The one with the vaguely Japanese-looking headdress. The one with Tsolyani characters inscribed on his headdress. They're all word-initial consonants; it's not an actual phrase of any sort. It is, however, UNMISTAKABLE. So I just ran through the screen credits-- an extended and occasionally interesting odyssey in itself-- but found no trace of acknowledgement. Robert Fletcher did the costumes, but the illustrator was a chap named Tom Lay; maybe it was HIS idea. At the least, it's interesting to know that the astounding visual similarities of that sequence are NOT coincidental... -- Gordon. ----- //565 [Moderator's Note: John Smith asks about the Tsolyani flared weapon design.] quoth the Professor on chlen hide: >Obtaining bronze swords for the entire Tsolyani army would be a major drain >on the Empire's fiscal reserves. Chlen-hide is so much easier to get; the >troops like it because it is very light (which bronze is not) Very true. I have a solid bronze dagger and a steel kukhri which are of about equal weight, even though the kukhri is almost twice the size of the dagger! No wonder they kept swords short in the Bronze Age. >the >Tsolyani were never interested in *short* or simple *straight* swords; >their society demands elaborate shapes and complexities. This has always bothered me. Many of the swords and other weapons I have seen in illustrations of Tekumel have been SO elaborate as to look impossible to wield in real combat. Even if chlen hide is much lighter, the weapon should still be properly balanced to be effective. Another matter is that all those waves, barbs, and zags will get caught in your opponent's armour or in his body, meaning you will waste time you may not have trying to free it. You can have this difficulty even with the most streamlined sword, how much more so with those baroque creations the Tsolyani carry around? Even if you killed the guy, will your next opponent be so "noble" as to wait for you to work your sword free? The courtesies of the Hirilakte Areas do not necessarily apply to warfare, no matter how formallised. An equal possibility is that your sword will break, maybe just at the tip which will make it less effective, or maybe further down which may make it useless to you. I will admit that leaving a barb in somebody will make a wound nastier but is it worth the other possibility? In either situation you could easily kill your first opponent only to find yourself disarmed in the middle of a battle. Even if you carry more than one weapon this may only delay the inevitable. Unless they let you go back to your camp to get a new weapon, you now have to scavenge from your fallen comrades or from the enemy and even if you can find an intact weapon in time (remember that they will be having the same problem) it may not be one you are trained to use. I recall in various sources (Swords and Glory, etc.) it is emphasized that one usually receives training only in the weapons of one's Legion, so if your Legion uses swords and all you can find are polearms, you're almost as badly off as any untrained peasant would be in the same situation. This also would be an economic and logistical nightmare. Imagine an army having to haul enough weapons to re-arm itself four or five times over! Can the five empires really afford THAT much planned obsolescence? Is chlen hide really that cheap? (Don't forget the labour costs involved either!) Now, I am probably overstating the case here somewhat. I would assume that the weapons meant for regular soldiers in set battles are of less elaborate shapes than those meant for display or for duels. Also it may be that chlen hide weapons are not so subject to breakage as metal ones, though I see this as only partly alleviating the problem. [Moderator's Note: I believe you are correct here. While the Tekumelani do ] [ indeed prefer some style-ization of their weapons, those ] [ that are excessively decorated/designed are for rituals ] [ only. A less flambouyant style is used for fighting. ] [ The Professor can elaborate, confirm or deny this. ] I also noted in the "Adventures on Tekumel" series that you never refer to weapon _sheathes_, but only to weapon "clips," which strikes me as sensible. Yours for the Greater Glory of the Seal, John ----- //566 [Moderator's Note: Steve Woodcock asks about the vast Empires of the Star- ] [ faring races prior to Tekumel's dropping into its pocket] [ dimension. ] >the Professor mentions again the always-intriguing Great Ancients. might >i humbly ask for a few more impressions about the star-empires that >preceeded the Time of Darkness? i've always found their references >fascinating, and i know that at this "time depth" few details are >available, but any general info would be most appreciated. (e.g., >polytheistic? feudal? clan-based?) Wish I could help more, but I have never investigated the great empires of the ancients. I have always had more than enough to do on Tekumel itself. The few myths and stories that survive tell of a single powerful interstellar state in this region of Humanspace: humans dominated it. The aggressive, curious, avaricious, and generally "up and at 'em" nature of our species made it possible for humankind to rule (or at least strongly influence) many species who were older and perhaps wiser than we. Humanspace included other citizens as well: the Pe Choi (whose scientific abilities had made intersteller travel feasible), the Ahoggya, who built great, boxy, bumbling merchant ships that bought stuff that other races treated as vile waste; the Shen, whose own fleets ranged far from their home system; the Pachi Lei, Swamp Folk, and Hlaka, whose cultures were smaller and less technological, but who had the capability to take Pe Choi technology and construct their own merchant fleets' the Tinaliya, who were intensely curious but who were so logical that they never developed an aesthetic or spiritual understanding at all. Etc. Still other races may also have existed within this sphere. including some that were hostile to Humankind. The pre-Tekumel form of government is hinted at in one myth-cycle as a sort of vast bureaucracy operating under a council of Archons (this is not the name in their language(s), of course). Each planet had its governing structure, but all joined together in this single great council (held at different locales from time to time), whenever need demanded. There were (and probably still are) spheres of power other than Humanspace scattered across the galaxy, with still more existing on other Planes that can be reached by nexus point gateways from ouur own space. Some of these species were extremely hostile to humans and their allies; a few hated the Pe Choi and considered humanity as little more than Pe Choi puppets. Several races preferred total isolation and blocked off access to their worlds with deadly technological devices. A few also sent small, secret groups to investigate and report on humanity's progress: e.g. the Shunned Ones. It is not known how many of these spy missions still survived on Tekumel after the planet and its solar system were abducted into the pocket dimension in which it still exists. So little is known... Alas! "Even the voices of the mountains are muted by the Sea of Time" (from the Engsvanyali recension of the "Lament to the Wheel of Black") Regards, Phil ----- //567 [Moderator's Note: Dwight Grosso asks about current events and tries to ] [ summarize what's going on in Tsolyanu. The Professor ] [ responds and brings us up to date. ] You're quite close to being correct. >Maybe I missed something over the last couple of months as to the current >situation in Tsolyanu and its bordering neighbors >1. Dhiuchine has ascended the throne and civil war is breaking out. War *has* broken out; it has been several months now that Eselne's forces have been occupying the northwest; Rereshqala's troops are taking the southern cities; Dhich'une is holed up in Avanthar, still issuing Imperial edicts, with several legions of Sarku-troops to back him up; Mirusiya and the newly-revealed Ksarul-worshipping Prince Taksuru holding Bey Su and trying to take Avanthar; Princess Ma'in in Jakalla minding the store; and all sorts of other powers and power bases, large and small, scrambling for goodies. >2. Eselne and Mirusiya are fighting in the north and are presumably trying to >work their way south? Eselne has encountered only the westernmost units of Mirusiya's forces. They are *not* friendly to one another, and some stand-offs and even clashes are reported. Eselne demands the Petal Throne entirely for himself, leaving nothing but generalships and chancellorships for his half-siblings. Nobody has accepted this. Eselne had initial successes in the south, down as far as Usenanu, but Rereshqala's southern legions pushed him back, and at the Great Battle of the River just south of Usenanu, Eselne himself was nearly killed, and his army was pushed back and could not establish a foothold on the eastern shore. (He has since landed forces elsewhere.) >3. Rereshqala is leading up another army from the south to Avanthar. He's trying. Last word I had was that his advance troops were at Hauma, fighting with Eselne's forces near the Kurt Hills. >4. Mu'ugalavya has retaken the Chakas, and Salarvya is witing to pounce on >its former provinces. The Red Hats retook only Pan Chaka, sending thousands of Pachi Lei fleeing into Tsolyanu, where they are treated as slightly unwelcome refugees. The Pe Choi blocked the Mu'ugalavyani from seizing Do Chaka -- they hate the Red Hats, except for a few Pe Choi tribes that are willing to accept Ssa'atis' commands. >5. Mridobu is nowhere to be dead, and his wgereabouts unknown. Yup. He's "nowhere to be dead" -- or may be "dead and nowhere" ... >6. Baron Ald was declared Dhiuchine's Supreme Commander of forces, and his >whereabouts are also currently unknown. No, the Baron is alive and well. He became disillusioned with Dhich'une, who plotted to have him killed. The Baron is back in Yan Kor, trying to hold Yan Kor together. There has never been much love lost between some of the city states: Makhis rivals Sne Kakor, Eber despises Go'on Tikku, several states have violent economic rivalries, etc. The Baron has used his best Gurek (legions) to put down rebellions spawned by upstarts. He was with his Tsolyani love-interest, Lady Kalusu hiViridame, the last we saw of him. She may have returned to Tsolyanu by now -- or to some other place, where she can gain some advantage for her man. This is truly a mess. People always used to complain that Tsolyanu was so stable and strongly governed that there was no room for "adventure" there. Yet very similar conditions have occurred at least 3-4 times before in history. If you don't mind dying in a bloody, confused, totally useless melee somewhere far from home, visit Tsolyanu and enjoy! Regards, Phil ----- //568 [Moderator's Note: Dwight Grosso asks some more about the great Cataclysm ] [ and the Professor responds. He also asks some interesting] [ questions about the Mihalli. ] >In Nuno Flavio's questions about pre-Cataclysm Tekumel, the subject of the >other 722 systems that fell prey to the Cataclysm and their current status >and histories was brought up. It seems to me that many of these systems were >probably destroyed, or left relatively uninhabitable for any race to live on, >except for the Shen, Shunned Ones or the Mihalli. While I can't begin to >conceive what the Cataclysm could do to an entire planet, I can comprehend >what a solar flare could do. If that is the case then even those above >mentioned races would have a hard time living on a burned out husk of a >planetoid. We know -- I think -- that the Cataclysm that removed Tekumel and its system from Humanspace was *not* a solar flare; otherwise, as you say, there would have been nothing left but cinders! No, Tekumel was sent off into its bubble-dimension by some process that involved other-dimensional technology. (It could have been a natural phenomenon, too, but I don't think so.) A great hole was opened in the space-time fabric of the Planes, and the victim (planet, system, etc.) slid through into a bubble; then the gateway was closed again. >What I am curious to know is that whether or not the Nluss settled on other >planets. It stands to reason that they could have. For that matter any of the >races that settled Tekumel could have settled other planets along with the >Terrans, and probably did. Absolutely. The N'luss were a genetic offshoot of the rather homogeneous human race before the Catastrophe. They seem to have been wanderers with few fixed bases. They traded rare metals and industrial technology to a variety of races within Humanspace -- and even beyond it occasionally. They maintained an attitude of aloof pride, which annoyed their other human counterparts, and which occasionally got them killed. They appear to have had little or no interest in ruling star empires, and were happiest when "questing." >The fact that humanity managed to drag itself up to a level of civilization >similar to the early Rennaisance on Tekumel is amazing in and of itself. I'm >not so sure humans or any other race did that well on other planets that were >savaged by the Cataclysm. The only ones who would know about that would be >the Mihalli, I presume, and they're not talking! Speaking of which can they >travel back and forth to these other planets? I doubt if they venture that far. I suspect not. Occasionally they drop hints about the places they visit, but these are disconnected, fragmentary, and seen through the eyes (and other senses) of creatures that lack our nice, "solid" perceptions of time and space. >It seems that they could if >they knew where they were going.... Which brings another question. Do the >Mihalli have "collective conscious" form of Telepathy? Not that I know of. They seem to be able to reach out and touch the minds of those with whom they wish to communicate, but they do not have a collective mind or consciousness. >That is to say, can >they travel to other planes if only one of their kind has been there? Their >minds do work much differently than our own, but the principle seems to be >one that Eastern philosophy embraces. I honestly don't know who they do it. They may just reach out and put a request to others of their species. This is then answered -- like asking around from one's fellows for a road-map. Regards, Phil ----- //569 [Moderator's Note: James Snead asks about Tekumel's older, "abandoned" ] [ Shrines and Temples. ] >I'm interested in the significance of major, "abandoned" shrines for the >modern ritual and political agendas of the various priesthoods. While the >role of Hmakuyal for the temples of Hru"u and Ksarul has been thoroughly >discussed, less information is available for other examples; the Chakan >temple of Vimuhla, for instance, and particularly the ruined temple of >Sarku. Hmakuyal is still occupied and in constant use. In fact, one of our player group was born and raised there. The Vimuhla shrine in the Chakas lies hidden within thick jungle. The Vimuhla priesthood does not want it known -- or much visited -- and so it is concealed behind nexus points and magical camouflage. The Temple of Sarku in hex 4013 of the Zocchi map is superficially ruined and desolate. Acturally, there are constant ceremonies and activities going on there. >I assume that both of these shrines are more active than they >appear, but would they be the object of pilgrimages No. Pilgrimages are more often made to city shrines, or shrines just outside the cities, where people can come and go more easily. These "secret" shrines are for the initiates and higher clergy only. >Does their control >play any part in the political machinations of empires (I'm thinking here >about Mu'uglavyani activity in the Chakas)? Not much. The Mu'ugalavyani tried to find the Vimuhla shrine, but the priests enhanced its camouflage and stayed hidden. They are quite hostile to the Read Hats, whom they blame for the "Hrsh heresy." >The shrine of Sarku is a >somewhat different matter. Was it destroyed during the campaigns of >Shaira Su? Its fortified setting suggests that it is still contested >ground. Is its reconstruction on the agenda for the reign of "Eternal >Splendor?" Yes, there were several campaigns by both Vayuma Su and her daughter, Shaira Su. The latter finally managed to destroy at least the upper shrine, although great stone fortifications survive. It's an interesting place. If you wish to see it, find a guide at the caravan-stop in hex 3914 and arrange for travel, etc. there. You won't see anything of the fabled underground, of course, and everybody you'll meet will be unfailingly polite and helpful. Your hosts won't bother you if you don't bother them. It's an interesting trip. Regards, Phil ----- //570 [Moderator's note: Joe Saul answers Gordon's question about the problems ] [ with semaphores. Gordon also follows up on his own post] [ detailing another problem. ] [Joes Saul's response...] Gordon Neff wrote: >message carried by jogging courier. Theoretically, reports from a a field >commander could get to Avanthe the same day they were sent! > I suppose the Imperial Couriers and the Blazing Sword Clan wouldn't >be too thrilled with THAT innovation, either... The Temple of Avanthe would be even less thrilled. *They're* supposed to be mediating that kind of contact. ;-) (You meant Avanthar. Easy mistake.) >-- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single biggest >pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist? Telescopes aren't in common use in Tsolyanu, as far as I can tell from comments in _Man of Gold_. This would restrict its use to the range of human sight. Rough terrain would make the situation potentially worse. On the other hand, the horizon on Tekumel should be a lot farther than on Earth... Joe [Gordon follows up on his original question...] "-- As an exercise for the alert reader, can you tell me the single biggest pitfall with this system? Hint: What range limits might exist?" In case no one figures this out-- which someone almost certainly will; membership on this mailing list could be construed as an intelligence test of no small utility-- there's a party game where the players sit in a circle, and a short phrase is given to the first player. He whispers it into his neighbor's ear, and he in turn whispers it, and so on around the circle. What emerges at the end of the process is wildly and strangely distorted. Comparison of this mangled product with the original is often hilarious-- the source of the game's amusement. It's the concept of 'cumulative error.' Despite all safeguards, 'best guesses' at ambiguity will snowball-- any message sent by semaphore telegraph will eventually deteriorate beyond comprehension. Simple code groups can forestall this, but suffer the hazard of correspondingly massive information loss-- was that number 116 or 110? The entire sense of the message may depend on which it was... The main value of the 'semaphore telegraph' is that it not only -can- work with Tekumeli knowledge, but it suits the culture also. Any civilization so deeply entrenched and well organized that it can build Sakbe Roads, and enforce the rules of those Roads across the entire domain, could build and employ such semaphores with ease. As I recall sitting here, less is said in the S & G Sourcebook about long-distance communication than could be. I retain the impression of temple telepaths and jogging Imperial couriers-- yet it is also said that there are no such things, really, as 'local ordinances'; what is legal in Avanthar is legal in Do Chaka. That both implies and very much requires fast, reliable, most of all -commonplace- communication. Local jurisprudence will depend on knowing what legal decisions have been made, what precedents have been established, &c. Such a vast and ancient Empire cannot be held together with Kuni-birds... For that matter, given how hellishly predominant the Sun is, it is easy to imagine equally Brobdignagian heliograph mirrors-- perhaps swung up and down with ropes pulled by slaves. Tsolyani does not lend itself to Morse code, of course, but such signal-mirrors were used for centuries by cultures Samuel Morse never -heard- of. The flash of such titanic heliographs could be seen as far away as the horizon permitted. Again, such installations could not be thrown up overnight-- but this is Tsolyanu, land of massive masonry. They -could- be constructed. You'd be surprised at how much information can be transmitted between dawn and sunset, by those trained in its communication. --G. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: http://nexus.prin.edu or ftp://nexus.prin.edu Available 24 hours a day, except when my PC is down, or unavailable.